[deathfun]

Talking about feeling beat down is important. It's not attention whoring.

Only really works when someone's listening, and actually understands
But no one actually does

[jg18]

Okay, just did, shorter than anticipated.  I thought they would launch into his logic and what not, and it'd be like 5 pages long.  Surprisingly they don't mention his actual thought process at all (unless I missed something, likely), at which point I must agree with Battman, this was definitely rationalization, and I am definitely off the mark.

The article is a pretty standard news story and as such is the length of a one-page paper. Even if they wanted to go into his thought process, they wouldn't have the space to do so. My first thought when I read your previous post was "my God, has the human attention span really become this short?"

I've changed my mind from the education-related threads based on what I'm reading here - basic psychology should be a mandatory course of study for everyone.

The intro to psych course that I took barely covered mental illness, since there wasn't enough time left at the end for it.

I'll probably also get the "armchair shrink" label stuck on me, but from what I can tell, there are at least two types of depression: either stemming from someone's general life situation or as a reaction to a specific event or set of events in someone's life, such as a loss of some kind (where "loss" is meant broadly). [I suppose there's also the "not obviously rooted in life circumstances" type, but that's a separate topic.] The article gives you very little to go off of, but there doesn't seem to have been any particular event in the young man's life that triggered his depression.

But yes, what everyone else said about how you can justify anything with logic, given suitable premises.

Furthermore, while medication isn't necessarily an appropriate first treatment or an appropriate treatment for every case, the sort of generic suggestions like

Talk to your friends and family. Encourage them to check in on you constantly and to work with you to kick you out of bad habits. Go to the gym with a partner, on a routine schedule. Find ways to pare down chronic stress - if you're a student, or in economic trouble, this is unfortunately going to be a big contributing factor.

really do come across as condescending. What if the person in question doesn't have friends for whatever reason, let alone a partner to go to the gym with? Or even family, for that matter? And if the depression is more closely related to a specific event or events rather than one's life situation, these sorts of suggestions are even less helpful and thus even more insulting.

No, that's okay. This thread would be improved by derailing into a religion ****slog.

Probably, although I wonder if the general reaction of some of the typical "voices of reason" on the thread partly stems from the fact that the personal experiences of other posters aren't necessarily lining up with their pronouncements.

[NGTM-1R]

The decision to take your own life isn't predicated on your own personal logic engine, it's predicated on the material you feed into that engine.

This does not preclude the possibility that suicide or suicidal behavior can be a rational choice. Indeed it would seem to explicitly affirm it if your view of reality is reasonably correct and yet you make the choice anyways; something we are not able to confirm or deny here.

[General Battuta]

If you're insulted by broad advice, akin to 'wash your hands' and 'stay hydrated', I'm not sure what to tell you. I was very clear that depression varies extraordinarily between individuals.

Eating a balanced diet won't cure someone's malignant sarcoma, but that doesn't make it bad general advice. Is it then 'condescending'? Did you think I was suggesting that exercise, friendship, and happy thoughts would cure depression in 100% of cases?

Probably, although I wonder if the general reaction of some of the typical "voices of reason" on the thread partly stems from the fact that the personal experiences of other posters aren't necessarily lining up with their pronouncements.

Please.  When the pronouncement is as broad as

The treatment is sometimes very simple - exercise, social contact, meaningful work - and sometimes nearly impossible.

I don't know where the heck you're getting this from. How is 'depression can be really hard to beat' meant to be condescending? To reuse the above analogy - the fact that some people get lung cancer through other pathways does not mean it's a bad idea to avoid smoking.

[deathfun]

That also contradicts what you said earlier now doesn't it
"Oh he just needed help" - First post you made to "It's sometimes simple, but sometimes nearly impossible"

The first post you made was highly condescending

But of course this falls on deaf ears
Much like everything else I try talking about

Not so simple talking to people who don't listen or understand now is it

[Nuke]

its decided, deathfun is the male equivalent of i am zack

[Kolgena]

Not sure whether to argue with deathfun or just ignore him...

It's pretty sad that this boy ended up dying. Warning signs for mental problems can be hard to pick up on. Look at those school shooters, who seemed fairly normal until they snapped. I don't see why depression couldn't present in a similar fashion in some individuals, where they outwardly appear normal until they've killed themselves.

I think the key is that our culture needs to be more open about accepting depression. If there wasn't so much stigma about being depressed (oh, tough people won't baw about feeling down), maybe people wouldn't be so keen to hide it or deny it until it gets to the point where they're planning their suicides.

As for psychiatry/psychology, it's unique in that it's the only discipline in which it has been shown that talking with patients as the sole treatment can improve patient outcomes. This of course completely depends on the caregiver-patient relationship and the general competencies of the caregiver. It's a shame that this often suffers because sessions (usu. with psychiatrists) are not long/frequent/good enough to build up these relationships to their full potential. There's usually no economic incentive for psychiatrists to actually sit down and do full fleshed-out psychotherapy sessions. Much more money to throw on some drugs and get the next patient in the room. (At least, this is what I've heard, living in North America)

And on top of that, pharmacological treatments are actually kind of blah (though much better than nothing), since many (almost all?) of the medications for depression have pretty meager benefits over placebos in drug trials.

[Dilmah G]

I've gotta pull you up on that last one. Cognitive Behavioural Therapy and the likes do their bit in helping, in my observation, but as MP-Ryan pointed out earlier I believe, they need to work hand-in-hand with medication.

My sister has a seratonin deficiency, plus I think two others whose names I can't pronounce/nor remember. CBT and talking to a patient won't change that.

[jg18]

If you're insulted by broad advice, akin to 'wash your hands' and 'stay hydrated', I'm not sure what to tell you. I was very clear that depression varies extraordinarily between individuals.

Eating a balanced diet won't cure someone's malignant sarcoma, but that doesn't make it bad general advice. Is it then 'condescending'? Did you think I was suggesting that exercise, friendship, and happy thoughts would cure depression in 100% of cases?

The advice isn't bad exactly, although by being generic it has to be somewhat impersonal, which is why it stumbles on the sorts of scenarios I mentioned before. And yes, the way I read your advice, it did indeed sound like you were passing it off as a cure-all.

Probably, although I wonder if the general reaction of some of the typical "voices of reason" on the thread partly stems from the fact that the personal experiences of other posters aren't necessarily lining up with their pronouncements.

Please.  When the pronouncement is as broad as

The treatment is sometimes very simple - exercise, social contact, meaningful work - and sometimes nearly impossible.

I don't know where the heck you're getting this from. How is 'depression can be really hard to beat' meant to be condescending? To reuse the above analogy - the fact that some people get lung cancer through other pathways does not mean it's a bad idea to avoid smoking.

Actually, what I had in mind when I wrote that was deathfun's reply to your post. Yes, he can be difficult (to say the least), but he still has a point here, which happens to fit with my comment above that generic advice might fit the situations of specific individuals poorly, which can then lead those individuals to resent both the advice and the one giving it, even if it's generally good advice and the one giving it means well.

Might I add that I generally appreciate the voices of reason in GD since they do tend to help make General Discussion make sense. I agreed with pretty much everything else you said (hence my not bringing those things up); I just didn't think that your advice was adequately qualified by the disclaimer that generic advice (or any set of advice, really) has its limitations.

EDIT: Slight clarification.

[General Battuta]

When deathfun expressed his, uh, views on rape I asked him if he felt depressed or lonely and possibly in need of help or a place to speak. He said he was fine and just wanted to stir up ****. I slapped him on ignore and haven't read one of his posts since.

I don't think this generic advice will ever* hurt outside of extraordinarily specific situations. It may not be nearly enough for some - even many - people, but it's a good foundation to work from, and it's the logical first step in an escalating response or a plan of maintenance. This is not, of course, to say that anyone feeling down, or especially anyone with a lot of suicidal ideation, should stop there. Social support, pharmaceuticals, behavioral therapy, professional help - all avenues of treatment nobody should feel ashamed for seeking.

[Nuke]

i tried to get help once. but there was none to be found, something about needing insurance. so i just said **** em. now i troll parking lots of medical facilities with an ice pick looking for expensive tires to poke.

[jg18]

When deathfun expressed his, uh, views on rape I asked him if he felt depressed or lonely and possibly in need of help or a place to speak. He said he was fine

I didn't believe him or at least there was a lingering trace of doubt. Those two posts (your question and his response) also stuck in my memory: you might have noticed that I brought them up earlier in this thread when The E accused deathfun of spouting nonsense.

I slapped him on ignore and haven't read one of his posts since.

Consider turning the ignore off for this thread.

I don't think this generic advice will ever* hurt outside of extraordinarily specific situations. It may not be nearly enough for some - even many - people, but it's a good foundation to work from, and it's the logical first step in an escalating response or a plan of maintenance. This is not, of course, to say that anyone feeling down, or especially anyone with a lot of suicidal ideation, should stop there. Social support, pharmaceuticals, behavioral therapy, professional help - all avenues of treatment nobody should feel ashamed for seeking.

In the context of depression at least (dunno about other illnesses), generic advice can give someone the impression that you don't understand their particular situation -- or, even worse, that you have no real interest in understanding it -- and can thus lead them to shut you out, regardless of how much you actually do care or how sound your advice is overall. This is especially true if you don't add something to the effect of "yes, I know this won't magically make everything better, but I think they're steps in the right direction," and double especially if some part of what you say happens to fit poorly with their situation, such as if you encourage them to get help from their friends when they don't have any -- they might just decide to ignore everything else you say because of that part alone. You wouldn't run into that pitfall if your advice weren't generic.

Does that help?

[General Battuta]

e: really this whole long post seems to be dancing around one issue:

and double especially if some part of what you say happens to fit poorly with their situation, such as if you encourage them to get help from their friends when they don't have any -- they might just decide to ignore everything else you say because of that part alone. You wouldn't run into that pitfall if your advice weren't generic.

If I were talking to someone who didn't have any friends, don't you think it would be a good idea to get a sense of why they're feeling depressed, who they have to support them, and what they're already doing to deal with it before giving advice?

I think we can both agree that's good practice. Had it occurred to you that that wasn't done here because this was a forum post addressed to no one in particular, outlining basic good habits for battling depression - akin to simple sanitation, hydration and bed rest for fighting disease? It won't beat cancer or ebola, but that doesn't make it bad advice.

Respectfully: it seems absurd to suggest that no one should ever give general advice because it might not work for one specific case. You worry about the specific case when you're dealing with the specific case. These are good life habits for almost everyone.

the rest of the post as it was:

I'm not sure exactly what you're saying. You're suggesting that my advice, addressed to literally no one in particular in a freely viewable thread on the Internet, concerning basic, empirically validated strategies for combating depression in its most general form, might be too general for any one of the [n] permutations of depression, where [n] is the number of depressed people in the world?

What actionable advice am I supposed to take from that? I see only two responses to what you're saying:

1) Write a specific action plan for each individual with depression who could conceivably view this thread, so that they won't shut me out because I've haven't gotten to know their specific situation
2) Never give advice on general action against depression because of the risk that someone might...think it doesn't apply to them?

Good hygiene, bed rest, and and hydration will beat most year-to-year illnesses. Should we stop advising people to pursue these strategies out of fear that they'll become infected nonetheless and then refuse to listen to you when you prescribe antibiotics?

My advice was extremely clear on this point: the severity and pathology of depression varies from person to person. These strategies are safe bets for healthy life in general and they come at extremely low cost; they are, in fact, all essentially free. If you don't like or can't pursue one of the strategies, whether because you're physically handicapped, have no friends, or suffer serious insomnia, simply move on to the next strategy, including clinical intervention.

This is especially true if you don't add something to the effect of "yes, I know this won't magically make everything better, but I think they're steps in the right direction,"

Where are you getting this implication from? It seems to stand in direct opposition to everything discussed so far in this thread, which has repeatedly highlighted the fact that the very nature of depression - a neurochemical disorder - sometimes requires pharmaceutical or intense behavioral treatment, and that people shouldn't be ashamed to seek this help.

if some part of what you say happens to fit poorly with their situation, such as if you encourage them to get help from their friends when they don't have any -- they might just decide to ignore everything else you say because of that part alone

This is basic advice for healthy living. Depression is not schizophrenia or a cognitive deficit. It does not make someone conflate 'I have no friends' with 'I can't run' or lead them to think 'I better stick to lifting weights, and never talk to a professional about my constant suicidal ideation' because someone on the internet made a forum post. If they have no friends, no social support structure, a physical handicap, and raging sleep cycle disturbances, there's nothing stopping them from saying 'well, Battuta's advice isn't going to work for me' and moving on to another tactic.

Your concern seems predicated on the identity of some particular reader. Did you think it was addressed at a specific individual? In that case I can understand your worry - but it is extremely difficult to tailor advice to the target audience when the target audience is, as in my post, nearly everyone who has ever suffered a depressive episode. This is the advice I would give in the course of a conversation with anyone worried about depression, whether they have suffered a death in the family, a trauma, or simply a creeping fugue induced by chronic stress, fatigue, or unhappy heredity. That doesn't mean it's the only advice.

Sticking to a consistent sleep cycle, regular exercise and eating habits, regular social contact, and some kind of meaningful flow state work or play to deal with stress is good practice no matter who you are. It won't work for everyone, and it won't do a damn bit of good for some people, but the costs involved are minimal and there is rarely reason not to pursue these lines of attack even while going for urgently needed behavioral or pharmaceutical intervention. This is basic self maintenance, something I'm sure we've all struggled with. It doesn't hurt to reinforce.

To bring this back to the thread topic: odds are that the child in question would have led a happy, successful life within five or ten years. This suicide was a completely tragic, senseless waste, and the best we can hope now is that people can learn something from it - whether a way to eliminate the causes that drove him to it, internal or external, or at least a better awareness of what to look for.

[General Battuta]

this happened in 1998

And the death is the latest in a recent series of apparent child suicides.

Earlier this week, an inquest heard how a choirboy was driven to hang himself by school bullies who burned him with cigarettes, attacked him in class and branded him a homosexual.

Darren Steele, 15, was found by his mother hanging from a cord tied to a window in his bedroom at the family's home in Burton upon Trent, Staffordshire.

In August, an inquest decided 13-year-old Kelly Yeomans, of Allenton, Derby, killed herself with a painkiller overdose after she was bullied for being overweight.

And that same month, A-level student Tony Dwyer, 18, of West Bridgford, Nottingham, fell to his death from a multi-storey car park a week before getting his exam results.

These are all great examples of cases where sleeping well and exercising clearly isn't going to do much good for you. It would be cool if we had a little more information on the titular case here than 'he wrote in a diary and killed himself', but without that, it's hard to do anything but fall back on the basics.

[bigchunk1]

@Ghostavo Admittedly, the proof is pretty sloppy as it relies on a lot of assumptions. I was just sort of having fun and making the point that using mathematics and logic to weigh decisions that involve meaning and personal preference tend to break fairly easily if not carefully treated. A classical example is René Descartes beginning with the statement "I think therefore I am" as an axiom and ending with the statement that god exists. There is no one hit KO when it comes to these things... and I think it's sad that this kid died before living long enough to rethink his logic. It appears to be a common tragedy with suicide, to forgo the opportunity to evolve your beliefs.

Assumption3: The quality of existence is defined as the summation of the absolute values of all experiences. Let Q denote the total quality of existence in a human life.
Q = |e1| + |e2| +|e3|+ ...+|en|             
where e1 is experience 1 and n is the number of experiences in a human's life.

You are taking the absolute value of "en."  That forces negative and positive experiences to both have positive weight in the accumulation of "quality of existence."  Not sure I agree with that.  One can envision the most horridly painful existence imaginable and it would still be considered "positive" in light of this equation, when I would not consider that to be the case at all.  If your sum total of existence is one accumulated misery after another, wouldn't your net quality of existence be negative?

This was an oversimplification in the proof to prevent it from becoming pages long. If you don't make every experience increase the quality of life, that implies that there exists experiences which cancel out the previous experiences you had. If you continually have negative and positive experiences of equal magnitude then by the formula, Q would be 0 and life would not be worth living (according to the formula). If you were to redefine a more complicated yet more accurate formula, you would have to break it up into cases and justify for each case that your formula will be non-zero. A summation of absolute values is probably the easiest way to avoid a case by case proof.

Personally, well, I want to believe that positive meaning can be derived from any experience, even bad experiences. I'm sure people who have felt pain in their lives just want to forget certain experiences so I am unsure if I outright believe assumption 3. However, again if we believe negative experiences decrease quality of life one could trace a slippery slope to conclude that certain lives are too painful to live through, at least by using this oversimplified single variable model.

Edit: Ok, after thinking about this a bit more the forumula is not dependent on positive vs. negative as much as distance from 0. Absolute 0 is like death (assumption 4), nothing is happening it is like you have not lived. Each experience in your life, positive or negative brings you further away from death in that you recieve them and feel them. By the logic of the proof the more time you spend living and having those experiences the higher your quality of life will be. It's like the more you live the more undeath like your life will have been. 

[Kolgena]

I've gotta pull you up on that last one. Cognitive Behavioural Therapy and the likes do their bit in helping, in my observation, but as MP-Ryan pointed out earlier I believe, they need to work hand-in-hand with medication.

My sister has a seratonin deficiency, plus I think two others whose names I can't pronounce/nor remember. CBT and talking to a patient won't change that.

Oh yeah, for sure. I never said that pharmacological approaches were bad (on the contrary, I recognize that they're a staple of good treatment plans), just that they usually aren't good enough to be used as "solo" type treatment, which can sometimes be the case. Clearly though, I didn't convey that properly in my first post.

[Androgeos Exeunt]

I'm just ****ING TIRED OF BEING TIRED.

See? You don't even pay attention any more.

its decided, deathfun is the male equivalent of i am zack

I actually thought she was quite a lady to discuss things with.

Furthermore, while medication isn't necessarily an appropriate first treatment or an appropriate treatment for every case, the sort of generic suggestions like

Talk to your friends and family. Encourage them to check in on you constantly and to work with you to kick you out of bad habits. Go to the gym with a partner, on a routine schedule. Find ways to pare down chronic stress - if you're a student, or in economic trouble, this is unfortunately going to be a big contributing factor.

really do come across as condescending. What if the person in question doesn't have friends for whatever reason, let alone a partner to go to the gym with? Or even family, for that matter? And if the depression is more closely related to a specific event or events rather than one's life situation, these sorts of suggestions are even less helpful and thus even more insulting.

Sometimes, the only thing an individual suffering from depression needs is somebody - anybody - to talk to. You may not think it is very helpful, and it certainly won't be for most, but every little bit can make a difference, right? For all you know, having somebody to talk to is the trigger an individual needs to recover.

[jg18]

Respectfully: it seems absurd to suggest that no one should ever give general advice because it might not work for one specific case. You worry about the specific case when you're dealing with the specific case. These are good life habits for almost everyone.

Sure, it's useful, generic advice, the kind of stuff you'd find in a pamphlet. But at some point, it'll have to reach someone, and if the advice at that point is just a verbatim or near-verbatim copy, well, don't be surprised if that person reacts the way deathfun did.

As for actionable advice from what I said, certainly give advice, but do so with care, even when directed to the nameless, faceless reader. Acknowledge that your advice is generic, if nothing else. With an illness like depression, given the stigma attached to it and the very fact that it is a mood disorder, even that simple acknowledgment makes a difference. You might call it tact. It was especially notable in this situation in that someone actually was responding to your advice and calling its value into question, but you didn't see it. If you haven't turned the "ignore deathfun" off for just while reading this thread, consider doing so.

But yes, back to the OP.

To bring this back to the thread topic: odds are that the child in question would have led a happy, successful life within five or ten years.

Probably.

This suicide was a completely tragic, senseless waste

Certainly.

and the best we can hope now is that people can learn something from it

Pretty much.

whether a way to eliminate the causes that drove him to it, internal or external,

It looks like all we have to go off of in this case is those five diaries. "Difficulties in coping with life" could mean anything, though.

or at least a better awareness of what to look for.

As the article said, there were no external indicators. People can be remarkably good at masking their feelings.

These are all great examples of cases where sleeping well and exercising clearly isn't going to do much good for you. It would be cool if we had a little more information on the titular case here than 'he wrote in a diary and killed himself', but without that, it's hard to do anything but fall back on the basics.

Fair enough.

Furthermore, while medication isn't necessarily an appropriate first treatment or an appropriate treatment for every case, the sort of generic suggestions like

Talk to your friends and family. Encourage them to check in on you constantly and to work with you to kick you out of bad habits. Go to the gym with a partner, on a routine schedule. Find ways to pare down chronic stress - if you're a student, or in economic trouble, this is unfortunately going to be a big contributing factor.

really do come across as condescending. What if the person in question doesn't have friends for whatever reason, let alone a partner to go to the gym with? Or even family, for that matter? And if the depression is more closely related to a specific event or events rather than one's life situation, these sorts of suggestions are even less helpful and thus even more insulting.

Sometimes, the only thing an individual suffering from depression needs is somebody - anybody - to talk to. You may not think it is very helpful, and it certainly won't be for most, but every little bit can make a difference, right? For all you know, having somebody to talk to is the trigger an individual needs to recover.

Certainly, although having someone to talk to and having someone to give you advice are completely different things.

[deathfun]

I don't see why depression couldn't present in a similar fashion in some individuals, where they outwardly appear normal until they've killed themselves.

This is true

I think the key is that our culture needs to be more open about accepting depression. If there wasn't so much stigma about being depressed (oh, tough people won't baw about feeling down), maybe people wouldn't be so keen to hide it or deny it until it gets to the point where they're planning their suicides.

I can agree somewhat to the stigma around it, although it isn't the case for everyone.

When deathfun expressed his, uh, views on rape I asked him if he felt depressed or lonely and possibly in need of help or a place to speak. He said he was fine

Yes, because I'm going to openly state that I've already tried killing myself once before. This is also a great example of the general mentality of most everyone else
"Are you okay?"
"I'm fine"
"Okay"
Even when the person CLEARLY ****ING ISN'T

odds are that the child in question would have led a happy, successful life within five or ten years.

Back to topic: Your definition of 'happy' might not correlate with his definition. Happiness is a relative and person specific idea. There is no all encompassing truth to seeking it as each individual has a different thought of what makes them happy

or at least a better awareness of what to look for.

Do tell. What would you look for in a person who has appeared the same way for the past ten years of his life?

It would be cool if we had a little more information on the titular case here than 'he wrote in a diary and killed himself', but without that, it's hard to do anything but fall back on the basics.

I do agree with this

its decided, deathfun is the male equivalent of i am zack

I don't understand the reference

I actually thought she was quite a lady to discuss things with.

I'm assuming you mean the person I referred to prior

Sometimes, the only thing an individual suffering from depression needs is somebody - anybody - to talk to. You may not think it is very helpful, and it certainly won't be for most, but every little bit can make a difference, right? For all you know, having somebody to talk to is the trigger an individual needs to recover.

Talking does little. Actions do more
It's far more helpful to have a friend who've you have consulted in than a psych. A good friend who actually understands what mindset you're in because they're in the same damned boat
That alone creates a bond of which is strengthened by action following it. You don't hang out with your psych, you talk to your psych, and then you pay him. That's the most impersonal thing I could ever imagine. Paying someone so you can talk to them

[General Battuta]

As the article said, there were no external indicators. People can be remarkably good at masking their feelings.

I'm not sure this is true.