[Mikes]

You can also get newer games from Gamer's Gate apparently, and from what I understand that doesn't include a middle-man client like steam:

http://www.gamersgate.com/

Never used the service myself only heard about it

The big question, as always, would be "What kind of DRM do they use?"

[Akalabeth Angel]

You can also get newer games from Gamer's Gate apparently, and from what I understand that doesn't include a middle-man client like steam:

http://www.gamersgate.com/

Never used the service myself only heard about it

The big question, as always, would be "What kind of DRM do they use?"

A cursory search of the web suggests they use whatever DRM the game originally came with.
Though some of their games are "DRM Free", which, from that same search suggests that the only authentication is when you initially install it.

Most of what I've heard on this is just from Total Biscuit who says he prefers it to Steam and buys through them whenever possible, though as to the specifics of how the service operates I'm not sure. Steam's convenient though I think Valve+Steam get way too much of a free pass from gamers with regards to what thier service actually is.

I still remember the day I bought the HL2 Episode pack from London Drugs and discovered I couldn't even play the game without downloading the last 5% off of Steam. Which is a crock of **** if you ask me.

[Mikes]

"DRM free" games do not need to authenticate. Anything else is false advertising.

So Gamers Gate games only authenticate during installation (next question: how/details?) and may indeed have very light/convenient DRM... but I can't help but to be put off by a company who calls their games DRM free and then makes you authenticate online.


That's bull**** and takes away from other companies, i.e. GoG, who also advertise "DRM free games" , but... you know, actually deliver DRM free games.

[Akalabeth Angel]

"DRM free" games do not need to authenticate. Anything else is false advertising.

So Gamers Gate games only authenticate during installation (next question: how/details?) and may indeed have very light/convenient DRM... but I can't help but to be put off by a company who calls their games DRM free and then makes you authenticate online.


That's bull**** and takes away from other companies, i.e. GoG, who also advertise "DRM free games" , but... you know, actually deliver DRM free games.

As I say I've never used the service so I'm not really advocating it, just throwing it out there as an alternative. An alternative not to GOG but to Steam. I don't really like Steam, I hate clicking on Terraria and getting a "loading steam" window. I hate some middle management program being loaded every time. I hate getting inundated with stupid ads after I quit my game.

Steam advertises itself as a digital distribution service but it is effectively DRM. And given the choice I'd rather take run of the mill, unobtrusive DRM than Steam any day. Of course, I'd prefer zero DRM To both (ie GOG)

[Mongoose]

A) Most of us presumably leave Steam running all the time anyway.

B) You can turn off the ads.

[Akalabeth Angel]

A) Most of us presumably leave Steam running all the time anyway.

B) You can turn off the ads.

A) The less programs that start up with my computer the better.

B) You shouldn't have to. Why should a person PAY for a game, and be subjected to ads every time they play it? Until they're forced to go to the options or whatever and disable all that crap. And not just some stupid ad off to the side, but a full window that opens up requiring you to close it. Buying a game should be buying a game, not signing up for a service. Valve seriously gets waaaaaay too much of a free ride from gamers. It's absurd.

But then again, now everyone's buying Diablo 3 with a REAL money auction house for silly virtual items which features auctions were Blizzard takes a cut three times. Worse than Ebay. But everyone's just getting in line 

[Mongoose]

I think most Steam users tend to like those ads, since they let us know about the next crazy sale that's going to be making our wallets cry.  Regardless of that, complaining about ads on Steam seems akin to complaining about a GameStop putting up sale placards in the windows...if your business is selling games, of course  you're going to want to inform customers about other games you sell.  And it's one option to disable "all that crap," hardly some crazy hardship.

And who said you have to have Steam as a startup process?  I don't, but I still keep it running most of the time my machine is on.

[Akalabeth Angel]

I think most Steam users tend to like those ads, since they let us know about the next crazy sale that's going to be making our wallets cry.  Regardless of that, complaining about ads on Steam seems akin to complaining about a GameStop putting up sale placards in the windows...if your business is selling games, of course  you're going to want to inform customers about other games you sell.  And it's one option to disable "all that crap," hardly some crazy hardship.

And who said you have to have Steam as a startup process?  I don't, but I still keep it running most of the time my machine is on.

Your Gamestop analogy is flawed. I didn't download Steam to buy games. I downloaded steam because I BOUGHT a game and the game didn't work without steam. Hell I didn't even have the full game before installing steam and downloading the rest.  I was sold an incomplete product that required a store install that by default showed me ads. You know what sorts of other games by default show you ads? Free ones. Not 60 dollar ones.

And I don't have steam as a startup process, but guess what it starts up whenever I want to play a game through steam.

And then the same people who defend steam to the last man will attack EA's Origin to the last breath, even though they're the same thing effectively.

[Dragon]

Except that Steam doesn't poke around your disk as much and is much more generous with sales. And if it ever starts fooling around my HD without premission, it's COMODO sandbox for it.

[NGTM-1R]

I didn't download Steam to buy games.

Yet you are in a thread discussing services from which to buy games. What is your purpose here then, if not to discuss content delivery?

[Cyker]

Due to my boycotting stuff that needs on-line activation, Steam has always been off the table for me so my vote has to goto GoG

I can see why Steam breeds so many fanatics, but I don't like it because it's become so insidious. There are games I'd love to pay actual money for but I don't want Steam more than I want to play the game so it gets passed over. Steam DRM is in so many titles now that it's basically single-handedly killed off the PC games retail sector and pushed the line of distinction firmly over from something you OWN to something you LICENCE.

Yes I know software companies want you to believe that all virtual things are only licensed, but at least with a physical disc they can't take it away from you at will, whereas with things like Steam they can.

I know a few people who, for one reason or another, have had their Steam accounts banned which has also lost them access to *all* their games and, while it's rare, the fact that it's even a possibility scares the hell out of me.

(One particularly odious one was a friend of mine who had the entire DoW1 collection prior to getting Steam; As you may or may not know, DoW had all the DRM patched out fairly early on (WA and DC didn't have any from the start!) but the last expansion didn't so like most people he had a CD crack for it. One day he discovered that he could add existing games to Steam, which he thought was an awesome idea, but apparently Steam DOES check your computer in some way as some time later his account got blocked for 'activity related to piracy'. Being rather naively honest, he tried to explain to them that he did own the game but stupidly admitted the CD crack just for Soulstorm and that was basically game over; They refused to even discuss it after that and so there went several hundred quid's worth of games down the proverbial toilet!)

The unparalleled shift in control is just something I can't deal with; Heck, it's only one small step from here to it being a rental system (In fact there are already Netflix-style services for games out there but they never made much penetration because few people would accept the terms and restrictions; Steam has built up a big enough RDF that I can see them going down that route in the future, with their customer's blessing even!)


My source of games is pretty much limited to indies who don't use DRM, GoG and the various humblie/indie bundles these days... but not having to repeatedly deal with stupid stuff like the recent Diablo 3 sillyness makes me feel like I'm on the right track
That and the games are generally better; Visual production values tend to be are a lot worse, but the music and game play more than make up for it.

These days I don't have time to play a lot of games, never mind work around the hurdles to get them to run! (And it's not just games now but even Audio CDs and DVDs too; I've had to return several over the years (Thank **** for distance selling regs) due to some stupid new copy protections on some of them that somehow prevent them working on my drives!)

[Akalabeth Angel]

I didn't download Steam to buy games.

Yet you are in a thread discussing services from which to buy games. What is your purpose here then, if not to discuss content delivery?

I like how you quote my sentence out of context and accuse me of going off topic when you're not even involved in the discussion.

So what is YOUR purpose here then, if not to discuss the merits of different delivery services, is your purpose to be an asshole? Seems like. So get lost.



And to put some context to my out of context quote, I never downloaded Steam to buy games. Yet it is on my computer, why? Because it's DRM. I think CHOICE is relevant to content delivery, and if I have no choice but to install some service I have no interest in then that's a black mark against that service. And yes I have bought a handful of games through Steam simply because it put itself on my computer and I knew of no other service, but now that there are options available I will exhaust all of those options before supporting any sort of invasive storefront.

Thank God Microsoft has the balls to tell Valve where to stick steam or I'd be forced to use it on Xbox as well.
(And yes, Xbox has its own storefront that is part and parcel of the service but I knew that well before I purchased it).

[Akalabeth Angel]

(One particularly odious one was a friend of mine who had the entire DoW1 collection prior to getting Steam; As you may or may not know, DoW had all the DRM patched out fairly early on (WA and DC didn't have any from the start!) but the last expansion didn't so like most people he had a CD crack for it. One day he discovered that he could add existing games to Steam, which he thought was an awesome idea, but apparently Steam DOES check your computer in some way as some time later his account got blocked for 'activity related to piracy'. Being rather naively honest, he tried to explain to them that he did own the game but stupidly admitted the CD crack just for Soulstorm and that was basically game over; They refused to even discuss it after that and so there went several hundred quid's worth of games down the proverbial toilet!)

`
I like how "Activity related to piracy" is justification for taking away legitimately purchased games. If I buy 10 games and pirate one does anyone have the right to deny my ability to play those 10 games? Or if I bought 7 seasons of Doctor Who but downloaded Torchwood would the BBC have the right to come into my house and take away 1000 dollars worth of DVDs? That's what it amounts to.

[jr2]

I like how "Activity related to piracy" is justification for taking away legitimately purchased games. If I buy 10 games and pirate one does anyone have the right to deny my ability to play those 10 games? Or if I bought 7 seasons of Doctor Who but downloaded Torchwood would the BBC have the right to come into my house and take away 1000 dollars worth of DVDs? That's what it amounts to.

+1

[BlueFlames]

Steam Subscriber Agreement - Section 5, Paragraph 2

Valve may terminate your Account or a particular Subscription for any conduct or activity that Valve believes is illegal, constitutes a Cheat, or which otherwise negatively affects the enjoyment of Steam by other Subscribers. You acknowledge that Valve is not required to provide you notice before terminating your Subscriptions(s) and/or Account, but it may choose to do so.

Steam Subscriber Agreement - Section 13, Subsection C, Paragraph 2

In the case of a one-time purchase of a product license (e.g., purchase of a single game) from Valve, Valve may choose to terminate or cancel your Subscription in its entirety or may terminate or cancel only a portion of the Subscription (e.g., access to the software via Steam) and Valve may, but is not obligated to, provide access (for a limited period of time) to the download of a stand-alone version of the software and content associated with such one-time purchase.

Valve likely believed that the no-CD crack that Cyker's friend was using constituted a breach of that game's EULA (and if I had Dawn of War and its expansions, I'd pluck out the relevant sections to show where Valve might have gotten that idea).  Being that Valve is a company with enough money to make them a tempting target for litigation, they don't want to be a party to anybody who's actively breaching contracts with other companies that have lawyers.  Valve wasn't meting out punishment, but making an effort to keep themselves out of court.  When you think about it that way, it makes a little more sense why they decided to completely terminate that Steam account.

Now, if Cyker's friend had read the Steam Subscriber Agreement and his games' EULA, he could have realized that he was walking into a costly trap by activating a game with a no-CD crack applied.  Is it ****ty that he got caught in that trap?  Sure, but he should have seen it coming.

Make no mistake:  This is no defense of Steam.  I recommended GoG, further up in the thread, because no DRM is the best DRM, while Steam is pretty lousy DRM, with a pretty veneer layered on top.  But if there's one thing I find equally annoying to bad DRM, it's people who patently refuse to read the contracts to which they are agreeing, and then act surprised and indignant about that contract coming back to bite them in the ass.  With games in particular, you've got to wait for the software to download/install, so even if you clicked past the EULA to get that process underway, you may as well reopen the EULA and give it a read, while you wait.

[NGTM-1R]

I like how you quote my sentence out of context and accuse me of going off topic when you're not even involved in the discussion.

So what is YOUR purpose here then, if not to discuss the merits of different delivery services, is your purpose to be an asshole? Seems like. So get lost.

There is no context. That's literally the context of your entire post. "rar steam ads bad" isn't much of story, but hey, it's what you wanted to tell.

My purpose here is to point out you're mindlessly waving your personal prejudice around, like an asshole, complaining about the ads for content delivery service in a content delivery service thread, like an asshole, and making insane comparisons of piracy (by the way, they would have the right to take away your DVDs if they think you're originating pirated material) like an asshole.

You've become completely wrapped up in your own bull****, seizing on anything that will confirm your existing views eagerly, dismissing anything that challenges them. It was amusing to watch the first few times. Now it's just boring. You contribute nothing but your hate to these discussions, parroting the complaints of others as fast as you can, inventing non-substantive ones that reflect your biases rather than anything legitimate. Do yourself a favor and take a break from this issue.

[Cyker]

<RANT! This is now basically a rant ;_;>
Yeah, that gets said a lot.   But I suspect 99% of people don't read the EULAs. Even if he did I doubt he would have understood or digested it all (I know I couldn't!). If you do then more power to you!

Out of curiosity, how many of you have actually READ and FULLY UNDERSTOOD the EULAs that come with pretty much everything?

When was the last time anyone checked the SCP licensing terms for instance?

I sat down and went through the Steam one after it happened to see if there was anything we could do (I couldn't believe the whole '1-strike, lose all games with no comeback' thing), and there is so much legalese I was getting a headache before I was any significant way through!

But what it amounts to is that you have practically no rights at all; The 'agreement' is totally one-sided - For instance: They accept no liability for anything, reserve the right to terminate your account with no reason, own rights to anything you do in conjunction with steam and if you actually abide with the agreement, apparently you can't even take legal action against them unless you're willing to do it in Washington!

To be fair, it's more or less a standard EULA as with most software right down to the clauses about you not actually owning anything, except that unlike normal software they *can* actually pull the plug!

I think if people actually paid attention to most EULAs and took them seriously, very few would actually buy any software!

I sometimes wonder if half of the EULAs out there are even legally enforceable, or legal for that matter; They often claim to revoke or nullify rights that, by law, cannot be, and then there was the classic cases where you couldn't even read the EULA until AFTER you'd bought the game and opened the box (No more refunds!).

Often you are already in possession of the thing before reading the EULA and have not explicitly agreed to anything beforehand, but they get around this by implying you have agreed by installing the game or reading the text or whatever.

This, in my mind, is not far off me saying: "By reading this text you forfeit the right to take any legal action against me ever and also agree to pay me the sum of 2 million pounds! Bwhaha!" And expecting that to be somehow legally binding...


</rant>

(As an aside, I had a laugh at the Apple one as another friend was setting up his iPad; The agreement screen fit on the iPad screen and looked refreshingly concise, until I tapped on one of the paragraphs and it expanded into a giant monster! Then I realised all 8? paragraphs/sections did the same thing  )

[The E]

When was the last time anyone checked the SCP licensing terms for instance?

the SCP license is:

Copyright (C) Volition, Inc. 1999.  All rights reserved.

All source code herein is the property of Volition, Inc. You may not sell
or otherwise commercially exploit the source or things you created based
on the source.

while this could be construed to be somewhat sinister, does not seem to be interested in acting on it in any way.

Also note that the enforceability of EULAs, and their actual texts, vary wildly between jurisdictions. In Germany, for example, EULAs as special case license agreements covering a specific product are only binding if they are known prior to the purchase being made; a "do you agree to this license" query at the start of the install procedure does not fill this requirement. In addition, if the only way to get that agreement is the aforementioned preinstall dialogue, then the EULA is treated as an extension of the companies general terms of use, and are subject to the rather harsh consumer protection laws we have around here.

[NGTM-1R]

And if we want to talk about advertizement, GOG sends me email spam about games I'm consistently less likely to care about even as something to know is going on and be able to converse with others as a subject. (In fact the only email they sent me I actually cared about was a recent one for SimCity2000.) They do it pretty much with the same frequency Steam throws big ads at me.

It might be slightly less visible, assuming I don't check my email often, or assuming I'm totally uninterested in getting free or cheap stuff that I've lost access to via time and block it with my spamfilter, but neither of those things sounds that plausible. I can probably turn it off, but I've never checked, and as a process it's likely just as involved or more involved than turning off Steam ads.

Basically crapping on people who sell games for trying to sell games is usually pointless and it's a matter of selecting the poison you find least offensive personally, not the one that's objectively least offensive. Until Ubisoft rolls out an online service.

[MP-Ryan]

...tangentially, I, for one, would like to see Steam add an email notification or some other notification feature when games on your wishlist go on sale.  I don't log onto Steam every day, and missing a ridiculously low 1-day sale price is quite annoying.

Also, I tend to defend Steam over Origin because Origin came into a market where there already was an excellent distribution platform purely because EA wanted to gouge for DLC, and despite having Steam as a template for functionality where all the hard work had been done, Origin is buggy (cloud service), doesn't discount games as steeply, has nowhere near Steam's features, and doesn't fully integrate with the games it sells for patching and updates.  Oh, and their store interface is awful and doesn't show the DLC unless you are IN GAME.

Steam is good, GoG is good, Origin is meh - it all depends on your own preferences, and a lot of the raging against Steam seems to come from people that don't really give it a chance.  While I prefer no DRM to some DRM, Steam's model is such that I will intentionally buy software there that I can get elsewhere despite the knowledge that it has DRM.

And people who don't read EULAs, violate them egregiously, then complain about the fact that they lost access to a service for which they did not read the legal terms they agreed to deserve what they get.  EULAs are notoriously difficult and generally what I consider a ****ty business practice, but you DO have the option not to agree to it.  Games are not an essential service; if you don't like the terms they are delivered under then vote with your wallet.