[General Battuta]

Yes, it is unfortunate, but even if people die. We dont negotiate with terrorists. Otherwise it means they won. And a bunch of extremists rioters is even a few steps below organized terrorists in my book.

support are troops

e: ahaha, kara, this guy thinks you (or your ancestors?) should have been banned from the UK

[The E]

How does "we do not negotiate with terrorists" lead to "trolling huge groups of people is totally OK"?

[karajorma]

Yes, it is unfortunate, but even if people die. We dont negotiate with terrorists. Otherwise it means they won. And a bunch of extremists rioters is even a few steps below organized terrorists in my book.

If you descend to their level that also means they won. And when you've reached the point where you say "I don't care who dies as long as the masses rise up and depose the system I don't agree with", you've sunk to their level.

[StarSlayer]

Even if people die as a result.

You know, I've finally understood why so many people avoid GD, and it's certainly time to join them.

Yes, it is unfortunate, but even if people die. We dont negotiate with terrorists. Otherwise it means they won. And a bunch of extremists rioters is even a few steps below organized terrorists in my book.

Man, sure is easy for other people to die for your convictions. 

[Mongoose]

srsly

[Polpolion]

This seems as good a time as any to say that last semester I started a new religion that worships Laplace Transforms. Anyone want to draw a few of those?

[General Battuta]

This seems as good a time as any to say that last semester I started a new religion that worships Laplace Transforms. Anyone want to draw a few of those?

sodomize yourself with a dirac delta you heretic

[stinkyFeet]

This is getting ridiculous. It's not just a question of whether this is worth doing if it leads to people being killed. It's a question of whether this trolling makes arabs more or less violent in the first place. I can't answer either. That we are even discussing this may be because comedy central gave in to their demands and showed them threatening people was a good way to get what they want.

[castor]

Yes, it is unfortunate, but even if people die. We don't negotiate with terrorists. Otherwise it means they won. And a bunch of extremists rioters is even a few steps below organized terrorists in my book.

While at it, why not a preemptive strike against any government that doesn't officially endorse this event, they might be negotiating with terrorists after all?
Seriously, if you fight mindless violence with acts that build new ground for mindless violence you've become part of the problem.

It's a question of whether this trolling makes arabs more or less violent in the first place.

They didn't manage to force their views on us, chances are it doesn't work the other way either.

[stinkyFeet]

It's a question of whether this trolling makes arabs more or less violent in the first place.

They didn't manage to force their views on us, chances are it doesn't work the other way either.

Their views were riduculous and were backed up with violence. Lets not pretend this is the same.

[Scotty]

It's a question of whether this trolling makes arabs more or less violent in the first place.

They didn't manage to force their views on us, chances are it doesn't work the other way either.

Their views were riduculous and were backed up with violence. Lets not pretend this is the same.

Riiiiight, because the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq (mostly Iraq) were not based at all on ridiculous views or backed up with violence.

[castor]

Their views were riduculous and were backed up with violence. Lets not pretend this is the same.

All that would be fine, if it was also *theirs* point of view.

[stinkyFeet]

I wasn't trying to justify the war in Iraq. We really screwed the pooch there. I was referring to the people who think they should prevent everyone from drawing Mohamed, sorry that wasn't clear.

Just so everybody's clear, we're talking about radical muslims knowing that they can't get what they want by threatening people's lives. I don't think the two messages are comparable. Even from their perspective, I think that's something that can be understood. If not by the individual, then at least by his followers.

[Aardwolf]

We dont negotiate with terrorists. Otherwise it means they won.

Now you just sound like a moron (and a parrot).

Do you know what happens if a terrorist holds a gun to your head and makes demands, and you play the "we don't negotiate with terrorists" act? You get your ****ing head blown off. The whole mess in Iraq and Afghanistan could've been avoided if we had negotiated with bin Laden. And furthermore bin Laden was right, we shouldn't have so many damn bases in the Middle East, and we shouldn't be such a corporatist state.

[/rant]

Edit: wait, did I miss a whole page or something?

[General Battuta]

bin Laden was not right and knuckling under to terrorist demands is asinine. He should've been treated as a common criminal, not an enemy leader.

[Dragon]

Exactly. Threating terrorists like enemies only helps them, since that means they're taken much more seriously. Also, did you thought about how many of those fanatics actually adhere to what Mohamed said? I believe that there are more people in America who adhere to Mohamed's teachings than there are fanatics shouting his name in the middle east.

[Aardwolf]

I said

And furthermore bin Laden was right, we shouldn't have so many damn bases in the Middle East, and we shouldn't be such a corporatist state.

And you replied

bin Laden was not right

You are either saying that it's not a problem that the USA is such a corporatist state, or that this (see below) is not "too damn many". Or both. Or you're arguing with the man instead of with the idea.





You then went on to say

knuckling under to terrorist demands is asinine.

We lost >5000 Americans in the September 11th attacks, and in the completely pointless Iraq war, and the almost-as-pointless Afghan war.

Now suppose that sometime before September of 2011 we stopped doing the thing that made bin Laden want us dead, i.e. we stopped having too damn many bases in the Middle East. How many people would have been killed in the 9/11 attack? None.

[General Battuta]

It's never a good idea to ignore the geopolitical and economic underpinnings of bin Laden's band of criminals, but at the same time, it's never a good idea to ignore the ideological component either. You cannot argue a counterfactual about what would or would not have happened if US deployment policy had changed during the Clinton years.

e: seriously trying to boil down this insanely interconnected chain of events into a dependency on one variable is just goofy

We lost >5000 Americans in the September 11th attacks, and in the completely pointless Iraq war, and the almost-as-pointless Afghan war.

Classy job writing off all the non-Americans we killed

[Aardwolf]

Yes, there might have been other factors... like maybe he had enough of a power trip that he'd keep the fight going just to keep his minions.

But we knew what he wanted (or at least what he said he wanted). We could at any time have said (to ourselves):

Let's withdraw from these bases, because they are an enormous resource drain, and because they are destabilizing the region more than they are doing any good. While we're at it, let's make good foreign policy decisions involving Israel and Palestine, instead of acting as though Israel can do no evil.

Not even any "negotiating with terrorists" required.




w.r.t. non-Americans: better than pulling a number out of my ass. The 5000 on the other hand is based on numbers I knew, ~3000 from 9/11 and 2000+ servicemen killed.

[General Battuta]

I don't feel remotely qualified to speak to any of those points and neither should you. Any kind of analysis on this subject without a damn lot of footnotes is rank pretense.

bin Laden and his lieutenants explicitly called for the creation of a Muslim caliphate that would oppose Israel and the United States. Removing US bases was one of many strategic goals; the US would never have abandoned support of Israel and that alone would have motivated an attack.

w.r.t. non-Americans: better than pulling a number out of my ass

All we're doing here is pulling things out of our asses. Be realistic.