[headdie]

depends if the GTVA incorporated a "shutdown" system in the gate then meson would be a irrelevant

[MatthTheGeek]

Not really. It's more interesting for the GTVA to turn a UEF blockade fleet into scrap metal than it is to shut the node they spent 18 years to try and stabilize.

[NGTM-1R]

depends if the GTVA incorporated a "shutdown" system in the gate then meson would be a irrelevant

At the Sol end? You can just drop rocks (Meson Bombs) down the node at them and set them to blow when they arrive in Sol, then lol off into the sunset. It'll keep them from interdicting fightercraft transit at the least.

[headdie]

If the GTVA got kicked out of Sol by the UEF, would there be the political will for a new invasion?  if not then what would be the gain of sending a (presumably expensive) meson ship through?

[MatthTheGeek]

What gain ? How about

to turn a UEF blockade fleet into scrap metal

You first send an expendable probe to relay the number and position of ships at the Sol side, and if there's enough ships to be worth a meson bomb, you send it.

[NGTM-1R]

If the GTVA got kicked out of Sol by the UEF, would there be the political will for a new invasion?  if not then what would be the gain of sending a (presumably expensive) meson ship through?

Assumes the only reason to blockade the node is after you kick the GTVA out. It's not. There are lots of reasons you might want to cut off communications and reinforcements, but Magic Meson Bomb Bombardment makes it a bad idea to try.

[MatthTheGeek]

It's been discussed long and large before anyway. The UEF can try to blockade a node, using mass Narayana and fighters/bombers to kill targets as they come out of the node, and before they can jump away anywhere in Sol. Since Naras are out of the Meson bomb detonation range and a bunch of fighters aren't worth a Meson bomb (and have enough subspace agility to jump the f*ck out before it detonates anyway), it's the only way to get enough firepower on incoming warships while staying safe from meson bombs.

Eventually, however, the GTVA can turn things around by slipping by enough fighters to mount a Trebuchet strike on the Narayana's guns, forcing the UEF to either commit closer range warships and risk a meson bomb strike, or let Tev warships freely run the blockade. The UEF cannot mount a lasting blockade against the Tevs.

[Medve]

That's a pretty damn believable blockade scenario. If the UEF ever get to that point, they can only try and hold out until civil unrest hits critical in Tev space. Somehow 'getting to that point' sounds unlikely however

[headdie]

on the situations for a UEF blockade, the only way the UEF could make a blocade stick for more than a few hours is if the GTVA fleet in Sol is rendered unable to respond, which given that the node is priority number one, lose that and the invasion is over, and as discussed there is the Atreus and its battle group, though the Hood is in repair I assume a good chunk of it's battle group is in system somewhere, the Imperieuse is in system and fairly fresh, Its BG depends on if it was sent through the node to make the UEF believe she had withdrawn but could be in system. so that's 2 destroyers and 2 possibly 3 battle groups able to respond to a UEF blockade of the node.  I dont fancy the UEF's chances of holding it as the GTVA will be engaging the UEF on their own terms with the UEF restricted in how they can respond and we know what happens when the GTVA can jump in close to a UEF ship. All this means that only by regaining control of the system do they stand a chance of blockading the node.

[MatthTheGeek]

Obviously, any UEF blockade scenario has no hope of being valid if the rest of the system isn't secured enough, that the UEF can just have Narayanas sitting at the node, defended by a few cruisers and Karunas, and be assured they won't be kicked out of their spot by forces from inside Sol.

[headdie]

At which point the GTVA Invasion has failed, which then brings me back to my original point

If the GTVA got kicked out of Sol by the UEF, would there be the political will for a new invasion?  if not then what would be the gain of sending a (presumably expensive) meson ship through?

The UEF warships will probably be at or beyond 3000 meters from the node to minimize return fire, in which case what is the point of sending a Meson ship to blast the blockade if all you are reasonably get is a few fighter/bombers?

[MatthTheGeek]

You just keep it ready in case the occasion presents itself.

[Scotty]

Before any blockade can reasonably happen, all GTVA forces in Sol must also be destroyed or forced to withdraw.

Seeing as that's pretty much impossible to do without losing the majority of the rest of the combined UEF fleets, that's not a likely outcome.  The losses would mostly rack up because in order to force all GTVA forces out of Sol, you'd have to attack all of them and defeat them simultaneously, or the damaged ships will simply be replaced in a few days.

[NGTM-1R]

The UEF warships will probably be at or beyond 3000 meters from the node to minimize return fire, in which case what is the point of sending a Meson ship to blast the blockade if all you are reasonably get is a few fighter/bombers?

Clearing the fighters is the first step to clearing the node. Whether the comparative expenses are justified misses the point that if you have only one way back in you're going to use it, and this is the first step.

The GTVA probably already has this capability, it'd be of use against the Shivans in multiple roles. (It's not just good at breaking up blockades, but would make effective way to cover a retreat through a node or just ruin the day of ship concentrations.) The bombs could easily just be sitting there, ready to go, for any old target.

Even just demonstrating the capability might be worth it. The UEF can't be sure how willing the GTVA will be to pull the trigger. It would put a serious damper on any plans to operate near the node even temporarily, like interdicting supply runs.

[MatthTheGeek]

Errm, you don't want to just have your bomb sitting at the enemy node doing nothing. The UEF could just bring a few Jump Five fighters and blast it, gaining you nothing.

[headdie]

I suppose the information we are missing is how long it takes the gate to establish the node and if capable how long it takes to collapse the node using it. 

If both are short, an hour or two then for example then precautionary shut down would probably be the best bet unless you believe GTVA survivors could slip though.

If the shut down is longer than transit time or not possible but the gate wont take long to reestablish the link then move up the meson and be ready, perhaps shut down the gate structure and move it to keep it safe.

This is of course academic for a while if the UEF warships are limited to intra system because then you would be looking at days or months of refit if possible before a counter strike could be mounted.

Before any blockade can reasonably happen, all GTVA forces in Sol must also be destroyed or forced to withdraw.

Seeing as that's pretty much impossible to do without losing the majority of the rest of the combined UEF fleets, that's not a likely outcome.  The losses would mostly rack up because in order to force all GTVA forces out of Sol, you'd have to attack all of them and defeat them simultaneously, or the damaged ships will simply be replaced in a few days.

if the UEF capture or destroy the remaining logistics ships then they could feasibly weaken the GTVA logistics capability enough to force withdrawl out of system as remember they are not just big freighters but also repair workshops.

The UEF warships will probably be at or beyond 3000 meters from the node to minimize return fire, in which case what is the point of sending a Meson ship to blast the blockade if all you are reasonably get is a few fighter/bombers?

Clearing the fighters is the first step to clearing the node. Whether the comparative expenses are justified misses the point that if you have only one way back in you're going to use it, and this is the first step.

The GTVA probably already has this capability, it'd be of use against the Shivans in multiple roles. (It's not just good at breaking up blockades, but would make effective way to cover a retreat through a node or just ruin the day of ship concentrations.) The bombs could easily just be sitting there, ready to go, for any old target.

Even just demonstrating the capability might be worth it. The UEF can't be sure how willing the GTVA will be to pull the trigger. It would put a serious damper on any plans to operate near the node even temporarily, like interdicting supply runs.

Personally I find that a bit thin, while the demonstration of a Meson warhead would rattle the UEF ships the fact that it reinforces the Do-or-Die situation means they woul dhave no choice but to fortify the node and make absolutely sure such devices do not make it into the system

[NGTM-1R]

Errm, you don't want to just have your bomb sitting at the enemy node doing nothing. The UEF could just bring a few Jump Five fighters and blast it, gaining you nothing.

I mean at the DS end. Although the GTVA might actually have Meson bombs sitting around Sol in case they ever get a location on one of the UEF's destroyers or a large group of warships. It's cheaper than the sort of force needed to do equivalent damage.

[Scotty]

if the UEF capture or destroy the remaining logistics ships then they could feasibly weaken the GTVA logistics capability enough to force withdrawl out of system as remember they are not just big freighters but also repair workshops.

This doesn't force all forces out of the system, and in all likelihood the chances of them capturing or destroying a logitistics ship after Steele doesn't need to give them one to spring a trap is essentially nil.  You can bet that Logistics ships will convoy with significantly heavier escorts than a cruiser or two, or even stay in secret or very well defended locations when they're not actively in use, ala the Imperiuese.

In short: easier said than done.  Probably harder done than even engaging all other GTVA assets in theater.

[MatthTheGeek]

and in all likelihood the chances of them capturing or destroying a logitistics ship after Steele doesn't need to give them one to spring a trap

Been discussed before too. The UEF finding/attacking/capturing a logistic ship wasn't part of Steele's plan, he just had contingencies for such a case and wonderfully managed to turn what should have been a major defeat into an occasion to get the neutral Zods to work for him. If he planned it all along, he wouldn't have arrested rear-admiral Carey for a treason that wouldn't have happened.

[Aesaar]

if the UEF capture or destroy the remaining logistics ships then they could feasibly weaken the GTVA logistics capability enough to force withdrawl out of system as remember they are not just big freighters but also repair workshops.

The UEF wouldn't dare attack a Vasudan logistics ship, lest they provoke them into providing actual military support to the invasion, which would spell doom even faster.  And the chances of getting another source to leak jump schedules before the war ends are slim to none.