Author Topic: Flame was US and Israel  (Read 4712 times)

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Offline Mort

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Offline headdie

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Re: Flame was US and Israel
 :banghead: this is starting to read like a bad hollywood cyberpunk
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Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Flame was US and Israel
:banghead: this is starting to read like a bad hollywood cyberpunk

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Offline Ghostavo

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Offline Dragon

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Re: Flame was US and Israel
They guys it Geneva better get to writing some conventions regarding cyberwarfare before it gets out of hand.

 

Offline Mikes

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Re: Flame was US and Israel
They guys it Geneva better get to writing some conventions regarding cyberwarfare before it gets out of hand.

I don't think it's gonna be that easy... as one of the allures of Cyberwarfare specifically is that you can delude yourself into thinking  "that no one will never know who did it".

Before you get caught red-handed anyways ;)

 

Offline Dragon

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Re: Flame was US and Israel
Well, in this case it really boils down to US and Israel, since they're the ones that have a bone to pick with Iran. Some cyberintel could still go undetected, which is what is really frightening about it. It has to be regulated, or else somebody will get the idea of attacking civilian targets like that, for whatever reason.

 

Offline Bobboau

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Re: Flame was US and Israel
how the **** do you regulate it? I could write the next big cyberweapon tonight in my living room without moving my ass an inch.
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Offline headdie

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Re: Flame was US and Israel
how the **** do you regulate it? I could write the next big cyberweapon tonight in my living room without moving my ass an inch.

like you do every breach of international law, you start at the target and investigate backwards, it's not easy and will probably take decades but thats how these things work
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Offline Dragon

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Re: Flame was US and Israel
Unfortunately, the UN has a habit of writing conventions after something horrible happens. Geneva Conventions were written after WWII has devastated Europe, killing millions, wiping out many old archives and destroying many historic buildings. Maybe now it's time to act before cyberwarfare causes a cataclysm, or escalates so much a convention won't be able to do a thing.

 

Offline Bobboau

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Re: Flame was US and Israel
my point is thought it's not like nuclear weapons, where you need special materials and equipment, so you can tell when someone is doing something. hell with this you will only know it has been deployed if it fails.
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Offline Dragon

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Re: Flame was US and Israel
It may be possible to detect a cyberattack after the fact, or even if it's already in progress and already did something. Only a perfectly executed attack wouldn't leave any traces, and those don't happen 100% of the time. I know that enforcing such conventions might not be easy, but it should at least be possible to charge the attacked with something in case he's caught. Right now, I don't think a country performing a cyberattack would suffer any consequences from UN, and I would prefer not to have anybody resort to armed retaliation.

 

Offline jr2

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Re: Flame was US and Israel
Right, so, I don't get it.  What is a convention going to do if they aren't that afraid of provoking an armed retaliation?  I mean, if you're not afraid of pissing a dude off after somehow instantly incinerating the $500 he had in his wallet with your fancy tech toy cause you didn't think that he would know you did it hiding in your little geek van, well, when he catches you, what's the difference if it's just him or if it's also a bunch of his friends because you violated some convention?

What I'm getting at is that it sounds like you're trying to say that laws against some type of crime will prevent someone who is becoming a victim of said crime from protecting themselves.

Or perhaps I'm totally misreading your point.

Convention = yeah cool, but it doesn't work for countries like N. Korea anyways, and those are usually the ones you would worry about.  The bigger countries either a) won't get caught, b) get caught and what are you really gonna do about it.

Hmm.  I guess what I'm really trying to say is I'm unsure of how this convention dealio would actually play out in the real world.  Are you proposing limits to the extent of cyberwarfare?  A complete ban? Needing to go to the U.N. for approval and therefore letting your intended target know what you are up to?  Consequences for ignoring said convention's rules?  Who would sign on?  How do you deal with the countries that don't sign?

  

Offline Bobboau

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Re: Flame was US and Israel
how do you deal with the US vetoing it?
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Offline Flipside

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Re: Flame was US and Israel
I think the best you could hope for is an International Agreement not to conduct cyberwarfare intended to put civilian lives in danger. For example, there's a difference between hampering the development by making centrifuges play up, and causing a generator to explode and putting lives in danger. However, since things like mucking around with finance systems could potentially lead to uprisings and deaths, it's sort of more a gestural commitment than anything else.

 
Re: Flame was US and Israel
May I indulge in a bit of devil's advocacy?

Think back to when Stuxnet and Flame were believed to have been developed and deployed.  Iran was alleging that their nuclear program was making impressive strides, and Israel was threatening military action to put a stop to any such advances.  In the immediate term, Stuxnet and Flame spared Israel from having to risk pilots and aircraft, as well as the lives of the Iranians attending to these facilities.

That's kind of small potatos, though.  Consider the larger backdrop, on which these events occurred.  In 2006, NATO was attempting to ramp up operations throughout Afghanistan to cobble together some semblence of stability, and Iraq was an utter shambles (this was the year of Abu Ghraib and the fall of Anbar Province).  Israel needed bunker-busting weapons from the United States to carry out their proposed attack on Iranian nuclear facilities, something which could have easily drawn Iran into the conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan, potentially tipping the balance against the occupying forces or drawing those conflicts out much, much longer than they otherwise would have lasted.

Doing nothing wasn't necessarily a much more appealing option than the military strike.  Power in the Middle East has always been balanced on the head of a pin.  A nuclear Iran poses a serious threat to regional stability, if only because their possession of a nuclear deterrent may serve to free up their conventional forces for offensive operations.  Setting aside the rhetoric of driving Israel into the sea, Iran has an ongoing dispute with Iraq over territorial waters in the Persian Gulf, and Iran, even without nuclear capability, has poked its nose into Iraqi territory, since the 2003 US invasion, going as far as to sieze part of the Al-Fakkah oil field for three days at the end of 2009.

When you consider the context, some electronic espionage does seem like the much more appealing option.

That's not to say that there aren't disturbing technological, societal, and political implications.  Before proceeding with this style of sabotage, whoever is at the helm needs to carefully consider the consequences of his/her bug getting out into the wild, as it almost inevitably will.  That being said, by the time such a bug gets into the wild, as we're seeing with Flame and Stuxnet being discovered five-plus years after they're believed to have been deployed, it's probably done its job, and security software developers will fairly quickly move to limit any collateral damage.  Even in the worst case scenario of an espionage-grade piece of malware getting loose and going totally undetected or unaddressed, technology will eventually march past it, providing newer hardware and software standards, with which the malware will not be able to interface.

I'll grant, that's cold comfort, but espionage and warfare are rarely undertaken because they're a desirable option; they're undertaken because they're the least undesirable option available.  Electronic espionage/warfare doesn't look like it's really any different.  Stuxnet and Flame may have served to save quite a few lives and prevent further deterioration of the Middle East, during a very volatile period.

 

Offline Dragon

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Re: Flame was US and Israel
I think the best you could hope for is an International Agreement not to conduct cyberwarfare intended to put civilian lives in danger. For example, there's a difference between hampering the development by making centrifuges play up, and causing a generator to explode and putting lives in danger. However, since things like mucking around with finance systems could potentially lead to uprisings and deaths, it's sort of more a gestural commitment than anything else.
That's about what I've been trying to say. Cyberattacks should be restricted to military targets, and conducted in a way that wouldn't hurt innocent civilians. Just like the use of other weapons. Also, messing with the other country's economy for profit should be forbidden (because let's face it, it's nothing more than fancy stealing). Of course, electronic espionage is just a modern evolution of this ancient art, and it's isn't really any different as far as morality is concerned. It's relation to electronic warfare is similar to relation between a spy and a saboteur.

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: Flame was US and Israel
All I can say is that I just can't wait to hear the whining the second China starts using their own versions. :p
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Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Flame was US and Israel
All I can say is that I just can't wait to hear the whining the second China starts using their own versions. :p

Assumes they haven't. They probably have. Hell, this isn't likely the US' first outing on this road either.
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Offline Bobboau

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Re: Flame was US and Israel
they definitely have.
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