[Klaustrophobia]

just started playing and am through 2 levels.  i like it.  combat is fun, but i haven't quite gotten used to the targeting yet.  (is 'select torpedos' meant to target torpedos, or is that for something else later on?)  not a fan of the points/achievements unlock system though.  very immersion killing.  i also wish you could look around.  i'd rather fly in first person, but the view is just too restrictive.

[NGTM-1R]

That's kind of a broad question. What exactly did you think was poorly designed about Zero?

Probably the same things everyone else who made commentary on the subject did; difficulty spikes, poor balance in general, overlapping controls for Strike and Pursuit modes that don't do the same things with the same keys.

To that I'd add that Strike mode in general is pretty disappointing and the only functionality of worth it appears to offer is the multi-lock missiles for coping with inbound torpedo salvos or warship turrets. Otherwise its penchant for absorbing more fire than Pursuit mode tends to outweigh any benefits. Also the multi-stage escort missions do not appear to reference other stages for the condition of the ship being escorted.

And it makes me amazingly mad, too, because a lot of this game is a combination of all that was good and fun from Freelancer and FreeSpace, and then it goes off the rails into frustrating bull****.

[Spoon]

Probably the same things everyone else who made commentary on the subject did; difficulty spikes

Difficulty is pretty steady in infinity, it gets progressively harder. You just aren't allowed to die or your whole run ends (which can get kinda sour, I did great up till level 14 when I had an accidental run in with a torpedo). The later levels especially get balls hard.

poor balance in general

There are some issues when it comes to reinforcements. Interceptors and Fighters are a complete waste of credits for example. You'll be in luck if they ever get a kill in and I'm unsure on how the devs didn't notice how much better a frigate is in the anti fighter roll. There's also that you get half the credits back at the end of the mission for every surviving ally. Your fighters are very likely not going to be alive at the end of the mission.
There is no way to tell your allies what to do (afaik), so when you've got fighters there will be like 2 attacking an enemy cruiser while 3 are someplace else fighting a corvette while your bombers are slowly getting killed by enemy fighters. This is also what makes bombers useless, you can't call them in when you need them, they'll be there at the start of the mission and half of them will probably be dead by the time the first capital ships show up.

overlapping controls for Strike and Pursuit modes that don't do the same things with the same keys.

I don't get how this is a complaint. I have absolutely no issue with this and I think that the people that complain about this are just dumb and bad and terrible (people and gamers)

To that I'd add that Strike mode in general is pretty disappointing and the only functionality of worth it appears to offer is the multi-lock missiles for coping with inbound torpedo salvos or warship turrets. Otherwise its penchant for absorbing more fire than Pursuit mode tends to outweigh any benefits.

Strike mode is actually prrretty amazing. If you are absorbing more fire in strike suit mode than in pur suit mode (teehee), you are doing it wrong. Strike mode gets so much extra mobility, dashing back forth left and right allows you to pretty much avoid 90% of the enemy fire. It's turning rate is also incredible, I often use it to just achieve a quick 180. Make a strafing run on a capital ship, afterburn away, transform, twirl around, transform again, strrrrrrafe like you wanna win.
I'm not completely sold on the Flux mechanic but I've long time ago come to terms with Flux management as part of the game.

Speaking of strike mode, Infi has two more strike suits that quite change the way you can play. There's the fat and heavy marauder which has incredibly powerful long range cannons and (unforunately pretty useless) multi lock mini torpedoes. These cannon's have a long reload, absorb a good bit of flux when fired but can pretty much eliminate a corvette in like 2-3 hits at a range of 7000. Not as great against hordes of fighters since you use more flux per shot than you get back from destroying an enemy fighter with it but if you have a full gauge you can still safely snipe away the majority of them (1 shot 1 kill)

And then there's that other strike suit which is fast, less armored and has a shotgun as primary. That's all I can say about it really since I haven't really used it much. You'll be cruising the battlefield quite a lot so I prefer the long range weaponry.

Also the multi-stage escort missions do not appear to reference other stages for the condition of the ship being escorted.

Well rejoice, there are no escort missions in Infi (though if you have capitalships on the field you'll spend quite a bit of time defending them)

And it makes me amazingly mad, too, because a lot of this game is a combination of all that was good and fun from Freelancer and FreeSpace, and then it goes off the rails into frustrating bull****.

Well if you really found SSZ that incredibly frustrating then you might still not like Infi either. Despite its flaws I had quite a bit of fun with SSZ.

[Lorric]

SPOON: "You just aren't allowed to die or your whole run ends"

So does that mean you have to start back at Lv1 and can't replay the later levels?

Sounds like playing Xtreme mode on Dynasty Warriors 4 Xtreme Legends or Dynasty Warriors 5 Xtreme Legends. Lucky for me I never liked Xtreme Mode anyway.

If this is so, can you cheat and quit out so you can play the level again? The DWXLs don't let you, they delete your save when you start the mission. You can of course get round this by copying your save file 

[NGTM-1R]

I don't get how this is a complaint. I have absolutely no issue with this and I think that the people that complain about this are just dumb and bad and terrible (people and gamers)

Probably because you're a terrible egomaniac who thinks of nobody else. I haven't had trouble with it either, but it's still dumb.

But seriously, there are enough keys on the keyboard not to overlap functions, even within easy reach. You spend a few missions getting people used to the way a non-Strike craft performs and then take away their boost and change it for a rapid reorientation. It's blindingly obvious somebody is going to get screwed by this, so I can only assume the game designers were dicks and intended that.

As for Strike mode, it's slow, and that's why it eats shells. Pursuit can always choose to screw-this-I'm-out and boost out of a bad fight.

[Phantom Hoover]

overlapping controls for Strike and Pursuit modes that don't do the same things with the same keys.

I don't get how this is a complaint. I have absolutely no issue with this and I think that the people that complain about this are just dumb and bad and terrible (people and gamers)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_least_astonishment

[Spoon]

I don't get how this is a complaint. I have absolutely no issue with this and I think that the people that complain about this are just dumb and bad and terrible (people and gamers)

Probably because you're a terrible egomaniac who thinks of nobody else.

Maybe!

I haven't had trouble with it either, but it's still dumb.

But seriously, there are enough keys on the keyboard not to overlap functions, even within easy reach. You spend a few missions getting people used to the way a non-Strike craft performs and then take away their boost and change it for a rapid reorientation. It's blindingly obvious somebody is going to get screwed by this, so I can only assume the game designers were dicks and intended that.

As for Strike mode, it's slow, and that's why it eats shells. Pursuit can always choose to screw-this-I'm-out and boost out of a bad fight.

  But it's not slow at all! You can double tap in any direction and dash the hell out of dodge and there is literally no reason not to keep dashing. Your autoaim crosshair is HUUUUGE in strike mode so its not like your aim is going to suffer a lot. And if you really need to get out, then there is nothing preventing you from transforming, afterburning then transform again, twirl around and unleash hell. It's an incredibly simple concept. Even the slow marauder can dash like mad.

Besides, thinking about it what keys exactly have overlapping functions that supposedly screws people over so much? You lose the use of TAB afterburner, but you can double tap ASWD instead. W is still Forward, S is now reverse instead of just slowing down. A and D are useless in pursuit mode so they gain use. You can't use CTRL anymore for EMP but you dodge missiles by dashing, so that's actually one less key to worry about. Nothing else really changes?
I really don't see how it is a valid complaint at all. For me its completely intuitive.

Now if you are just talking about mission design and the way they give you the strike suit and go "have fun lol oh and intercept these torpedoes too while you are at it" there you definitely have a point. It does a not so great job of easing people that are not so familiar with space sim/arcade combat into it (and I would dread playing the game on a gamepad...).
SSI gives you the strike suit from the start though.

SPOON: "You just aren't allowed to die or your whole run ends"

So does that mean you have to start back at Lv1 and can't replay the later levels?

Sounds like playing Xtreme mode on Dynasty Warriors 4 Xtreme Legends or Dynasty Warriors 5 Xtreme Legends. Lucky for me I never liked Xtreme Mode anyway.

If this is so, can you cheat and quit out so you can play the level again? The DWXLs don't let you, they delete your save when you start the mission. You can of course get round this by copying your save file 

You unlock up till the mission that you've played so far but when you start from say, mission 10. You'll never gonna have as much reinforcement points to spend then when you would have started at mission 1 and spend your points more wisely (and intercepted every shuttle)

[Lorric]

Thanks Spoon.

So how does the game decide how many points you have if you start a later mission then? If you can play later missions, I would have thought it would save your high score (preferable) or last score, so you start with that many points, and if you want more you need to start at an earlier point to try and improve it.

[Klaustrophobia]

i don't understand what you guys are talking about at all with the remapping between the modes thing.  maybe it's because i use a joystick, but i haven't noticed any kind of problem or even potential problem.  after a bit of remapping the defaults, both control schemes are completely natural.

as for the strike mode being slow and a bullet target; yeah, that's why you don't just cruise around in it.  fly to where you need to lay the smackdown on a group of fighters, pop the suit and lay waste with the primary and auto aim, and then pop back and burn out when you're done or get into trouble.  hell, for a while, i forgot about the missiles entirely.


one oddball thing that kinda bugs me is the machine gun.  it damages the target even when it's CLEARLY missing.  the targeting is kinda weak too.  the "objective" filter is WAY too broad.  there isn't an "everything" filter.  sometimes targets aren't included in ANY filter and the only way to get them is boresight.  i REALLY want a "target nearest attacker" button.  like, really, REALLY bad.  it's very easy to loose the direction arrow for your actual target in the sea of all the other arrows.  there's no easy way to target turrets on a cap ship if they aren't an objective.

[Darius]

Oh my dear and fluffy lord.

Dat soundtrack.

[NGTM-1R]

there's no easy way to target turrets on a cap ship if they aren't an objective.

Eyeball it. Gun range is short and targets are big in this game. That's not a huge problem.

[The E]

Easiest way to deal with turrets? Strike suit mode, mark all the turrets you see, cut loose, fly to other side of target, repeat.

[Klaustrophobia]

getting towards the end and it's getting less fun.  enemy swarm tactics and strike mode missile spam is wearing thin.  so is the insane amount of (unmarked) beam turrets that need to be destroyed to protect your ship while that's not even your supposed objective.

[Mikes]

As for Strike mode, it's slow, and that's why it eats shells. Pursuit can always choose to screw-this-I'm-out and boost out of a bad fight.

You do realize how the the dodge (double tap) in strike mode works, do you ? Because your sentence only makes sense if you haven't figured it out yet heh.

If you actually use it right, Strike Mode allows you to literally zoom around the battlefield (or even circle strafe around cap ships) while evading pretty much any missiles and bullets that come your way.

getting towards the end and it's getting less fun.  enemy swarm tactics and strike mode missile spam is wearing thin.  so is the insane amount of (unmarked) beam turrets that need to be destroyed to protect your ship while that's not even your supposed objective.

.... since when do especially Freespace players need to be told to kill beam turrets because they hurt your capital ships?

Frankly, disarming capital ships should be as natural as intercepting torpedos or taking out heavy fighters/bombers attacking your capships... 

Also... (minor spoiler) ... especially in the second to last mission of Strikesuit zero ...

Spoiler:

... you aren't expected to successfully defend every single capital ship ... that's nigh impossible with everything thrown at you...   what you are supposed to be, is good enough at defending them, so that there are enough (i.e. at least one  - your carrier lol)  left at the end that you can still land somewhere after the mission

In general...

... what I think still throws some people off with the Strikesuit games is that pretty much any other Space Sim teaches us that the players power is rather limited because he is only in a single fighter and therefore his impact on the battle has to be rather limited as well. This is also while socalled "Battle of endor missions" are usually frowned uppon, because the player in his single fighter doesn't have the tools to really affect the outcome of such huge battles.

Well... in Strikesuit you pilot the single most powerful unit in the game, by far. You do have the tools and ... you are expected to use them to singlehandedly swing the battle in your favor.

It's a rather different approach. I wouldn't call it better or worse, but it certainly is very very  "different" in that I can see it causing trouble to people who don't acknowledge that difference.

[NGTM-1R]

You do realize how the the dodge (double tap) in strike mode works, do you ? Because your sentence only makes sense if you haven't figured it out yet heh.

Your assumption is that dodge moves you far enough to be out the way of incoming fire from about fifteen hostiles who don't aim very well. I'll give you a hint: it's usually not. Stormtrooper Effect from Jedi Knight: the best way to minimize damage from incoming fire is actually to remain on the same relative vector at range, because enemy accuracy deviation means they usually shoot around you. Given the number and power of enemies, particularly some of the Black Fleet and their flak, however, neither solution is really effective. Dodging in and out of range with Pursuit mode and managing your shield bar is usually more effective.

[Spoon]

I'll give you a hint, you don't really seem to have as high of an understanding of the game as you think you do.

Dodging in strike suit mode IS highly effective at evading fire. You also don't understand how enemies actually aim and fire. They don't spray and pray highly unaccurately, they actually do prediction shooting at where you are currently heading. (As if they have a super accurate lead indicator with super auto aim) Thats why you don't just dodge once and go "PHEW SURE GLAD I DODGED ALL OF THESE OH ********S WHY AM I BEING HIT AGAIN??!" you keep dodging, you zip left and right, back and forth while you keep ripping them apart with your high powered weaponry. Again, its not a hard concept to understand or execute.

... what I think still throws some people off with the Strikesuit games is that pretty much any other Space Sim teaches us that the players power is rather limited because he is only in a single fighter and therefore his impact on the battle has to be rather limited as well. This is also while socalled "Battle of endor missions" are usually frowned uppon, because the player in his single fighter doesn't have the tools to really affect the outcome of such huge battles.

Well... in Strikesuit you pilot the single most powerful unit in the game, by far. You do have the tools and ... you are expected to use them to singlehandedly swing the battle in your favor.

It's a rather different approach. I wouldn't call it better or worse, but it certainly is very very  "different" in that I can see it causing trouble to people who don't acknowledge that difference.

SSZ is very much like Project Sylpheed and not so much like Freespace in that regard.

[Klaustrophobia]

.... since when do especially Freespace players need to be told to kill beam turrets because they hurt your capital ships?

Frankly, disarming capital ships should be as natural as intercepting torpedos or taking out heavy fighters/bombers attacking your capships... 

i know THAT i need to do it.  there's just not a good way TO do it.  if they aren't marked as an objective, there's just no good way to actually find all the remaining beam turrets other than watching for their fire.  sure you can spam strike mode missiles at the side of the ship, but that doesn't guarantee you hit the important turrets.  and there's so damn many of them, even if you could get to them all immediately, there's no way to kill them all before they do a significant amount of damage.  of course all this is going on while what you're REALLY supposed to be doing is taking out the heavy fighters and intercepting torpedos. 

what it boils down to is the targeting system is weak and doesn't give the players what they need to effectively prioritize.  this is made worse by the swarm tactics which essentially mean you should be shooting at something constantly to stem the tide.  you're either wasting time shooting things that aren't a priority, or wasting time FINDING the priority targets.  all the while, your friendly ships are getting chewed apart.

[Mikes]

As far as Beam turrets go, I found the first cruiser encounters to be rather effective at teaching you where the beam turrets are on a cruiser. It's not rocket science really. They are always in the same spot and they are kinda the biggest turrets that there are

Encountering the Command Carriers later on was a bit more chaotic, but I think those encounters were meant to be... and also really not that hard to spot the huge frigging beam cannons that give a big "Hello I m here" ligthshow every couple of seconds.

Beam turrets aren t the only things doing damage though. Torps getting through while you are busy elsewhere are much worse and those countless batteries of Plasma cannons actually deal noticable damage as well if you don't take care of them. The way to do it is to look for opportunities to do the most amount of damage to the entire offensive potential arrayed against you... and if at all possible your current strike should already give you enough (or at least some) flux energy for the followup strike. Chasing down singular objectives one by one will always leave you with a subpar result.



As said above ... the game supplies you with all the tools you need to take care of these threats quickly and efficiently enough to finish any of the mission perfectly fine.

Matter of fact... once I started to use the Suit to its full potential I found the game to suddenly become not just about finishing the missions successfully (which is really rather trivial once you get the hang of it) but more about getting a perfect score to get the best ending and also unlocking those upgrades with the bonus objectives.

[yuezhi]

Being sold for 5$ on GOG!

[Spoon]

I'm ranked #6 on the strike suit infinity leaderboards, ask me anything.

(This game has a few really ****ty design decisions for score attack.)