[NGTM-1R]

Until we as a species can sort out the problems on our OWN PLANET, then going into space is a terrible idea.

The solutions to our problems may be out there, you realize that yes? It may be as simple as the living space or resources we need, it may push the technologies we require better than staying here, it may be that in going we will learn things about ourselves applicable everywhere.

Exploration of our own planet has already paid great dividends in each of these areas; exploration of space, too, has made its contributions to some of them probably before you were even born.

But go on and deny the reality in front of you.

[jr2]

I know it's exciting to think about how technology can be used, but one also must consider its potential for abuse.

See, following this logic, we should all live in Quonset huts... sure the possibility exists.  Probably will even happen.  Think about it: Hitler couldn't have done nearly as much damage if we were still living in the aforementioned huts.  Just because tools can be used for harm doesn't mean we shouldn't use them.  It simply means we should be aware of, take preventative measures against, and, when found, enforce deterrents for those types of actions.  Sure a space station is remote.  So, a surprise inspection should be pretty hard to scramble around, yes?

You keep pressing forwards. 

Speaking of Hitler... the printing press has been used for great evil too, you know.  And it has also been used to condemn and decry such evil, and inspire people to fight for liberty from such tyranny for themselves, and, amazingly, for others who they don't even know.

[Nuke]

Until we as a species can sort out the problems on our OWN PLANET, then going into space is a terrible idea.

The solutions to our problems may be out there, you realize that yes? It may be as simple as the living space or resources we need, it may push the technologies we require better than staying here, it may be that in going we will learn things about ourselves applicable everywhere.

Exploration of our own planet has already paid great dividends in each of these areas; exploration of space, too, has made its contributions to some of them probably before you were even born.

But go on and deny the reality in front of you.

new frontiers aren't going to solve our problems, they haven't in the past and i very much doubt they will in the future. going to space is neither about solving nor creating problems, its about expanding out sphere of influence. you will just have more territory to fight over, more resources to exploit more places to breed in and overpopulate. so what if you nuke the living **** out of eachother if you have a few backup colonies. you will have megalithic battles between the earth-mars coalition and the jovian confederacy. and when every rock in the solar system is populated we stick engines on the nearest ice dwarf, hollow it out and use the ice for propellant so we can invade the next star system over. human problems will never be solved. they exist because the laws of nature allow them to exist.

[mormon_boy]

*blindly dives in to conversation*
technological advancement solves many(but not all I'll admit) "problems" history has shown us that to of the biggest motivations to advance technologically are either war(where we fight over what we already got) or exploration (where we fight over what hasn't been claimed yet. hopefully with less pew-pew-pew). personally if i had to choose between the two i would pick exploration.
*momentum from the dive carries him through the scuffle and out the window on the other side of the room*

[Beskargam]

new frontiers aren't going to solve our problems, they haven't in the past and i very much doubt they will in the future. going to space is neither about solving nor creating problems, its about expanding out sphere of influence. you will just have more territory to fight over, more resources to exploit more places to breed in and overpopulate. so what if you nuke the living **** out of eachother if you have a few backup colonies. you will have megalithic battles between the earth-mars coalition and the jovian confederacy. and when every rock in the solar system is populated we stick engines on the nearest ice dwarf, hollow it out and use the ice for propellant so we can invade the next star system over. human problems will never be solved. they exist because the laws of nature allow them to exist.

I think a new frontier could be handy in some ways. One of the things I took away from my AP history classes was that the American Frontier in the west served as an escape valve for both immigrants and people looking to start over, and the easy acquisition of land led to increased social and economic mobility. i.e. the American Dream. Not saying the situation is the same, nor would space expansion lead to the same economic and social mobility because the tech isn't there for this to be available to the majority of the populace like a horse and wagon was. but in the future, the idea of a fresh start could be a powerful thing.

[NGTM-1R]

new frontiers aren't going to solve our problems, they haven't in the past

I know a huge number of Mongols and English and Irish and Germans and English again and Chinese who would disagree with you.

For that matter the idea that exploration has never entailed the solving of technical problems which improved quality of life for others is so utterly laughable. How to get people to survive on a shoestring in a hostile environment always has application to population issues and medical issues.

[Alex Heartnet]

In the past, settlers didn't have to deal with new technologies so complex they are literally rocket science.

Fixing a broken wagon wheel can be done by hand by one person without a proper education.  Fixing a broken spaceship engine, on the other hand, requires a certain degree of technical expertise that can currently only be found within highly trained specialists.  And it's easy to imagine a colony requiring a population that consists entirely of trained specialists.

Moreover, it's difficult to imagine a need for uneducated blue-collar workers within a colony or space station - the types of manual labor that need to be done in space tend to require trained professionals.  An established colony might have need for white collar workers - waitresses, hotel workers, exc exc, but all the important tasks the colony needs to do will still be in the hands of the educated specialists!

Until space travel technology is made simpler, or education methods improve, the final frontier will be lacking that social and economic mobility that frontiers have historically had.  The last thing we need is yet -more- wealth and power for the likes of rich corporations.

[Beskargam]

because the tech isn't there for this to be available to the majority of the populace like a horse and wagon was.

carpentry isn't that easy if you don't know what you're doing. I'd like to point out that that is a skill that is lost to say the majority of my generation, just as riding a horse well is. just as skills can become more or less prevalent depending on the need for them, who is to say that such skills would not become more common? Also think about how much information we have now, in forms like wikipedia. we don't use all the information on such a database, but say you access all the information you needed to know about a subject in a minute or two? or less for that matter. what if that could be done for rocket engines for example? education standards could change as well. or technology as you said.

and I was thinking more dirt side colonies when i said new frontiers and whatnot, but even still I'm willing to bet you won't get rid of "blue collar" jobs in the future. My money is there will still be someone to wipe the floor, take out the trash and unclog the toilet. and this is assuming the definition of what it means to be "blue collar" stays the same. and I bet you will need that mechanic as well. By the way Blue-collar doesn't necessarily mean unskilled. just manual labor. unless we become big blobs of jelly and have robots do everything for us, there will probably be some manual labor jobs.

I know this is a lot of what if, but we are speculating on the future which this whole thread is a giant what if.

[Nuke]

new frontiers aren't going to solve our problems, they haven't in the past and i very much doubt they will in the future. going to space is neither about solving nor creating problems, its about expanding out sphere of influence. you will just have more territory to fight over, more resources to exploit more places to breed in and overpopulate. so what if you nuke the living **** out of eachother if you have a few backup colonies. you will have megalithic battles between the earth-mars coalition and the jovian confederacy. and when every rock in the solar system is populated we stick engines on the nearest ice dwarf, hollow it out and use the ice for propellant so we can invade the next star system over. human problems will never be solved. they exist because the laws of nature allow them to exist.

I think a new frontier could be handy in some ways. One of the things I took away from my AP history classes was that the American Frontier in the west served as an escape valve for both immigrants and people looking to start over, and the easy acquisition of land led to increased social and economic mobility. i.e. the American Dream. Not saying the situation is the same, nor would space expansion lead to the same economic and social mobility because the tech isn't there for this to be available to the majority of the populace like a horse and wagon was. but in the future, the idea of a fresh start could be a powerful thing.

and how many cultures did we stomp out in the process, which creates more problems. and of course theres new technology but look how we have used that tech to better the lives of everybody, not just the rich white people of europe and north america. no level of technology changes human nature. war is our way. space is not about solving problems. besides humans dont want to solve problems, they want to create them, and then blow them up. that should be our reasoning to go to space. not peace. imagine a universe where we can employ weapons of mass destruction on a daily basis and yet not wipe out our species. we shall be the scourge of the stars, and we will make them bow before us and praise us as gods even as we nuke their children.

[achtung]

The video is worthless space geek masturbation material. I thought there was something more than pretty pictures to this thread at first.

[IronBeer]

and how many cultures did we stomp out in the process, which creates more problems. and of course theres new technology but look how we have used that tech to better the lives of everybody, not just the rich white people of europe and north america. no level of technology changes human nature. war is our way. space is not about solving problems. besides humans dont want to solve problems, they want to create them, and then blow them up. that should be our reasoning to go to space. not peace. imagine a universe where we can employ weapons of mass destruction on a daily basis and yet not wipe out our species. we shall be the scourge of the stars, and we will make them bow before us and praise us as gods even as we nuke their children.

I actually think Nuke's more or less got the right idea. It's that idea of Gods vs. Gorillas regarding space exploration and alien race contact. We need to be the Gods if we're going to survive in the really long run. In matters of alien morality, I'm constantly drawn back to the story with the Babyeaters and the Superhappies (no I don't want to dig that thread back up right now). The only surefire way to ensure humanity stays ...human and living is to be more powerful and potentially scarier than anybody else out there.

I'm sure this isn't a new idea for a lot of us, but we don't need to cross paths with a necessarily "evil" alien race to meet our ends at their hands. They may simply view us as unintelligent and inconsequential, much how we view "lesser" (aka non-human) animals on Earth. [tonguecheek]Or Earth may be in the path of a proposed hyperspace bypass, and we never made it to Alpha Centauri in time to see the notice.[/tonguecheek]

On the other hand, I like to believe that there is a certain (mindbogglingly high) level of technological advancement that might allow us to stop killing each other at least. Cheating mortality via true transhumanism seems like a pretty good start. Or Nuke might be entirely right, and transhuman existence would simply allow us to kill each other eternally.

[Nuke]

even if it became trivial to supply every human in existance with basic human needs without demanding anything of them in return. we still wouldnt do it. why give anything to non-contributing members of society when we can keep it for ourselves and use it to make even more money. poor people give to charity because its the right thing to do, rich people give to charity because its a free tax writeoff. those with financial and political power seldom want to share it with peasants and they always one more, thus is the root of our lust for warfare. were not going to be a race of spacefairing hippies looking to share our knoledge and fortunes with those species who have yet to come as far as us, were gonna be warships, guns, orbital bombardment with rods from god, dropships full of marines and tanks. and we will probibly just kill them cause our machines can stripmine their planet faster than they can if we enslaved them.

[IronBeer]

Turning our hatred on alien life might be the best way to unite humanity.

[Nuke]

...and so the saga continues.

[jr2]

Great, so when we become the Empire, I'm finding the nearest Rebel base and defecting, just a heads up. 

[Beskargam]

I think jr2 just proved the point that you paint humanity with a very generalized brush Nuke

[Nuke]

im not saying that the majority of people dont want peace. but its not them who ultimately decide how things work, its the people with the cash and the power who make the decisions. by the time the peace lovers know whats going on its too late. and too many people buy the propaganda of the power base and defend it. and so that good majority aint so major anymore because most people are sheep, and the power base knows to play both sides against the middle while they carry on as usual.

[mormon_boy]

you can join the rebels if you want, but personally I want  to go track down the browncoats

[stinkyFeet]

I want my space house, gosh darn it!

Maybe having something great to look forward if humanity does well would solve a lot of problems by itself? How many people justify doing a poor job at work as sticking it to the man?

The future isn't what it used to be.

[mormon_boy]

I want my space house, gosh darn it!

Maybe having something great to look forward if humanity does well would solve a lot of problems by itself? How many people justify doing a poor job at work as sticking it to the man?

The future isn't what it used to be.

WHERES MY JETPACK