Author Topic: Windows 8  (Read 23607 times)

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Offline The E

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So, I got Windows 8 through MSDNAA.

Pros:
I like the window decorations.
The whole OS seems a lot more responsive (I don't think this has anything to do with it being a new install; I did do an upgrade install over Win 7)
The ribbonized explorer is actually great

Cons:
The start menu. After going through it, unpinning everything that was pinned there by default and then pinning the stuff I actually use it is somewhat usable, but it's still unnecessarily obtuse. For example, start menu search hasn't been removed, but there is no hint in the acual UI that this is the case. I also installed Stardocks' "Start8", just to get a normal-sized target to click on on the taskbar, and to get a quickly reachable shortcut to shut the thing down.
Inconsistency. The whole user experience feels inconsistent. On one hand, you have beautifully redesigned tools like the task manager, on the other, stuff like the device manager or the various settings dialogues haven't been updated forever.
Then there's the divide between "Apps" and normal programs; much like the Widgets from the Vista era, apps exist completely separate from the desktop programs. Unlike them, there is no good way to make the two interact; using apps always means going through the start menu into a fullscreen application, which in cases like the mail app or the twitter app I use is just a waste of screen real estate. Beautiful waste, though.

In conclusion, my verdict for now is "skip it, unless you get it for free and don't mind the initial setup period". It is certainly not a mandatory upgrade.


PS: During setup, I had a weird failure when installing the GPU drivers. For some reason, ATI's installer refused to recognize my card, and thus didn't give me the option of installing the proper driver; I had to go through the device manager and install the damn thing manually to get it to work.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2012, 01:55:38 am by The E »
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Offline Fury

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Quite, I agree that Win8 is an inconsistent mess when it comes to PCs. It's great that a lot under the hood has been upraded and it is more responsive than Win7, but consistency of applications and user interface is a horrid mess.

Perhaps Win9 will make things right once again. Assuming PC business even exists then anymore.

 

Offline TwentyPercentCooler

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I forced myself to use it for a month, and feel pretty much the same. It's not /horrible/ or anything. Start-up times are faster, or, at least, they were on my crappy old laptop. I just felt like there was an incredibly unnecessary amount of tweaking involved to get it to do what I wanted it to do. I like to customize things, by nature, so that's saying a lot. I installed a simple script that was set to run at start-up that would boot it straight to the desktop instead of the obviously-touchscreen-optimized "charm" window. I made my own crappy hack of a start menu from a jumplist. I started utilizing Windows key shortcuts a lot more often.

If Windows 7 disappeared from the face of the planet tomorrow and I had to use 8, I don't think I'd complain all that much. It's not a big deal one way or another. I just don't really see a reason to "upgrade" from 7 at the moment.

 

Offline sigtau

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Who uses forum signatures anymore?

 

Offline Klaustrophobia

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wow.  that article read like it was written by a microsoft marketing director.


"WE know what's best for you!  Customizing things the way you want and defeating our sales-driven design is IMPEDING your enjoyment!!!!"

what.  teh.  ****.  do they really think we're stupid enough to be fooled by that?


(don't answer that)
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Offline Bobboau

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they think that apple became worth the better part of a trillion dollars by doing that, so they will too.
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Offline Mikes

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they think that apple became worth the better part of a trillion dollars by doing that, so they will too.

Well Apple kinda did...  and now they are kinda hogging the ignorant sheeple masses that Microsoft would need to repeat Apple's success. :P

 

Offline mjn.mixael

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The problem is that Apple probably has a patent on "computer-like devices with Apps", so this is bound to go to court.
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Offline Ghostavo

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Apple has a cross patent license deal with Microsoft from when Microsoft bailed Apple.
"Closing the Box" - a campaign in the making :nervous:

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Offline Klaustrophobia

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that would explain why more and more of microsoft's stuff is emulating apple's stuff.
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Offline jr2

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« Last Edit: August 29, 2012, 05:48:04 pm by jr2 »

 

Offline MP-Ryan

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So, more disconcerting than the user-interface issue is the fact that new machine shipping with Windows 8 will automatically be placed in secure boot mode, and if locked there by OEM who use a firmware key, you will be unable to dual-boot or run any other OS without virtualization.

WTF?

http://www.zdnet.com/blog/open-source/linus-torvalds-on-windows-8-uefi-and-fedora/11187
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Offline Ghostavo

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That's Windows RT (ARM), Windows 8 (x86/x64) does not have that. And on ARM you'll be able to install other OSs provided they have a key. Canonical and Red Hat seem to have been able to do so for their OSs.
"Closing the Box" - a campaign in the making :nervous:

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Offline LHN91

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Windows 8 x86/64 supports it as well, but I'm fairly certqin that there's a condition in the agreement for windows 8 x86/64 certification that says that oems must allow secure boot to be shut off.

 

Offline jr2

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I think you could always boot Linux or another OS from the Windows boot menu.  You can do that now, try putting EasyBCD (personal use is free, have to look for the link, e-mail is not required, contrary to appearances) on your Windows machine, and edit the startup menu from there.

EDIT: If the NeoSmart site isn't letting you download, get it from Softpedia.  I think it just my connection, though (landlord's HughesNet <ick!> Satellite connection via repeater at almost max range).
« Last Edit: August 30, 2012, 05:44:59 pm by jr2 »

 

Offline sigtau

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I spoke to a friend of mine who works at an Intel-run CPU/BIOS interfacing lab in Columbia, SC, and everyone he works with absolutely abhors the UEFI paradigm.  They all insist that UEFI is going the way of the Vista at some point--and Secure Boot with it--though I wonder just how much of that prediction is optimism. :nono:
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Offline Admiral LSD

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I think you could always boot Linux or another OS from the Windows boot menu.  You can do that now, try putting EasyBCD (personal use is free, have to look for the link, e-mail is not required, contrary to appearances) on your Windows machine, and edit the startup menu from there.

With EFI secure boot enabled, if the OS isn't signed with the right key then it won't boot. As mentioned earlier though, not only have MS have mandated the ability to turn it off (on x86 at least) as part of the certification agreement, but several popular distros (SuSE, Fedora and notably, Ubuntu) have announced plans to support the feature.

I spoke to a friend of mine who works at an Intel-run CPU/BIOS interfacing lab in Columbia, SC, and everyone he works with absolutely abhors the UEFI paradigm.  They all insist that UEFI is going the way of the Vista at some point--and Secure Boot with it--though I wonder just how much of that prediction is optimism. :nono:

It's taken 16 years for everyone to start moving away from the archaic PC BIOS, it'll probably take another 16 before any alternative to UEFI becomes viable...
« Last Edit: August 30, 2012, 10:00:32 pm by Admiral LSD »
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Offline jr2

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Right, hmm, I haven't looked into how EFI booting works, but if it is similar enough to regular booting, then, after NTLDR (or its EFI equivalent) is loaded, then you just have to chainload another OS from the boot selection menu.  Let me go see if this is plausible; then I'll post back.

EDIT:

EFI / UEFI seems to be a really good concept, and have been around for a long time, even without user knowledge, as some UEFI manufacturers have BIOS emulators built in.  The idea behind UEFI is that the BIOS can perform diagnostic and other functions on its own, as well as  UI (GUI or otherwise), and can load an OS, and provide low-level drivers for the OS to use until the OS's own specialized drivers take over (e.g., graphics while booting until the regular drivers can take over.  Normally, the OS loads the basic graphics driver first, and then the specialized one later).  UEFI (in its previous EFI form) has been supported since early 2000 era with no big fuss.  However, your concern stems from M$ trying this nice little power grab: (-gasp! who would've thought??)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unified_Extensible_Firmware_Interface
Quote
Microsoft will demand that computers with the "Designed for Windows 8" logo use UEFI with secure boot (which will only allow signed software to run on the device) enabled by default.[39][40] Red Hat developer Matthew Garrett raised concerns over the requirement for secure booting to be enabled by default and Microsoft responded by saying that there was no mandate from Microsoft that prevents secure booting from being disabled in firmware or that keys could not be updated and managed.[39][40] Microsoft later reversed this position, mandating that disabling SecureBoot on ARM-based systems "MUST NOT be possible."[41]

EDIT2: Hmm, there was more further down... IDK why the criticism is about UEFI, though, the problem seems to just be M$'s demands about Winblows 8....

Quote
Numerous digital rights activitists have protested against UEFI. Ronald G. Minnich, a co-author of coreboot, and Cory Doctorow, a digital rights activist, have criticized EFI as an attempt to remove the ability of the user to truly control his computer.[46][47] It does not solve any of the BIOS's long standing problems of requiring two different drivers—one for the firmware and one for the operating system—for most hardware.[48]

TianoCore,[49] an open-source project which provides the UEFI interfaces, lacks the specialized drivers that initialize chipset functions, which are instead provided by coreboot, of which TianoCore is one of many payload options. The development of Coreboot requires chipset manufactures to cooperate by providing specifications needed to develop initialization drivers.

UEFI reimplements a full networking stack, unlike many BIOSes, and therefore is a target for remote security exploits.[50]

Secure Boot

See also: Windows 8#Secure boot and Hardware restrictions#Windows 8

In his article "UEFI secure booting", Red Hat developer Matthew Garrett raised a concern that UEFI's "secure boot" feature may impact Linux: Any machine with the Windows 8 logo and with secure boot enabled and that ships with only OEM and Microsoft keys will not boot a generic copy of Linux.[51][52] In response, Microsoft stated that customers may be able to disable the secure boot feature in the UEFI interface.[2][53] Concern remained that some OEMs might omit that capability in their computers, and later it was reported that Microsoft apparently prohibited the implementation of such a feature on ARM systems.[54][55]

Joshua Gay of the Free Software Foundation (FSF) also raised concerns about "secure boot"; the FSF declared a public statement open for anyone to sign:


Quote
We, the undersigned, urge all computer makers implementing UEFI's so-called "Secure Boot" to do it in a way that allows free software operating systems to be installed. To respect user freedom and truly protect user security, manufacturers must either allow computer owners to disable the boot restrictions, or provide a sure-fire way for them to install and run a free software operating system of their choice. We commit that we will neither purchase nor recommend computers that strip users of this critical freedom, and we will actively urge people in our communities to avoid such jailed systems.[56][57]


In December 2011, Microsoft released a document about hardware certification of OEM products: Windows Hardware Certification Requirements, [41] confirming significantly different requirements regarding secure boot for the x86/x86-64 architecture and the ARM architecture. It has been revised several times since being issued. As of July 30 2012, the document requires that x86 and x86-64 devices have "secure boot" enabled by default. However, it requires that the firmware include an option to disable secure boot, and also a custom secure boot mode that provides the ability to add cryptographic signatures from vendors other than Microsoft. ARM devices are required to have secure boot enabled by default, and are required not to provide either an option to disable it, nor a custom mode that allows the user to add alternate signatures.[54]


EDIT3: So, I guess the TL;DR version is M$ is trying to say "**** off, we own ARM" ??  And possibly x86 and x86-64 if they can get that too... :doubt:

EDIT4: Easiest way around this: create some "company" that sells a universal UEFI chainloader for other OSes (there is one mentioned somewhere in the wiki article I think, openboot or somesuch) anyways, have the OEMs sign their UEFI for that, then use the software bootloader to have the signature keys from M$ to load their bloatware if desired, along with nice OSes likee Linux and MacOS.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2012, 09:08:12 am by jr2 »

 

Offline FlamingCobra

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http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2012/08/samsung-start-menu-app-shows-why-microsoft-is-going-its-own-way-with-surface/

-snip-
OEMs have started shipping Start Menu emulators with their copies of Windows 8.   :lol:

This is the one thing that might make Windows 8 on PC bearable.

 
:bump:

Official launch event in NY live right now, devices should be available tomorrow. I'm really curious how the public will react...