Author Topic: Valve, the SSA, and Class-Actions (split from Portal 2 coupon)  (Read 16384 times)

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Valve, the SSA, and Class-Actions (split from Portal 2 coupon)
With Steam having joined Sony and Microsoft in chipping away at consumer protections, I cannot, in good conscience, encourage others to adopt or become more heavily invested in the Steam platform.  My coupon shall remain in my inventory, until its expiration.

[edit] Changed the title to something more appropriate.  Thanks, annonymous moderator, for deliberately mischaracterizing my position. [/edit]
« Last Edit: August 19, 2012, 10:35:49 am by BlueFlames »

 

Offline Klaustrophobia

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Re: Steam is zeh evil omg
while yes, there is something to be said about companies trying to take away consumers' legal recourse, it looks to me like this is really steam and the other guys trying to stand up to frivolous lawsuits and lawyers/consumers trying to make a quick easy buck.  class-action suits nearly always seem to be analogous to copyright sweeps in reverse: make an accusation and attempt to force a settlement with a nice payout. 
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Offline Dragon

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Re: Steam is zeh evil omg
With Steam having joined Sony and Microsoft in chipping away at consumer protections, I cannot, in good conscience, encourage others to adopt or become more heavily invested in the Steam platform.  My coupon shall remain in my inventory, until its expiration.
Then give it to somebody who is already heavily into Steam, but doesn't have Portal 2 yet. :) Regarding "my" coupon, it's really my father's call what to do with it, so unfortunately I can't decide.

 

Offline Nuke

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Re: Steam is zeh evil omg
they need to make it illegal for corporations to hold your digital rights hostage in order to coerce you into agreeing to changes in the terms of your license agreements. just because they fixed a couple bugs in something you already have the rights to use shouldn't give them the right to drastically change the rights that you already have. you should be able to say no and not have it sabotage your right to use something you bought. if it gets too far out of hand i can always resort to piracy. they dont like it, then by all means sue me and loose more than you will ever gain.
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Re: Steam is zeh evil omg
Quote
Then give it to somebody who is already heavily into Steam, but doesn't have Portal 2 yet.

So because they already have a big problem, I should enable and encourage them to make it bigger?  No.

 

Offline Scotty

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Re: Steam is zeh evil omg
I'm glad you're here to tell people what their problems are.

 

Offline The E

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Re: Steam is zeh evil omg
This is not a thread to bash Steam. This is a thread to discuss what to do with the vouchers we got.

BlueFlames: You are making this into a larger issue than it actually is. Valve wanted to protect themselves from CA lawsuits, and even gave a reasonable explanation why (in short, CA lawsuits in general only make profits for CA lawsuit lawyers), and in addition, offered to cover all reasonable costs arising from lawsuits being brought by individuals. That, I submit to you, is way more than other companies like Sony have done.

Also, why should I care about CA lawsuits anyway? It's not like they exist around here.
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Re: Steam is zeh evil omg
Quote
Also, why should I care about CA lawsuits anyway? It's not like they exist around here.

If you haven't already, you may wish to look into the EU's studies into implementing class action policies, under the name, "collective redress".  (A starting point)  While you may not have the option of a class action lawsuit today, the option may become available in the near future, except in the case actions against of Valve, who have preemptively denied you that option.

Quote
Valve wanted to protect themselves from CA lawsuits, and even gave a reasonable explanation why (in short, CA lawsuits in general only make profits for CA lawsuit lawyers).

And I would contend that their given reason is little more than a smokescreen.  How many class-action lawsuits have video game developers, publishers, and distributors faced that have been thrown out as frivolous?  On the other hand, what tools do consumers have available to them that can put them on equal footing in a courtroom with a multimillion dollar corporation, with an expansive and presumably well-trained legal team on retainer?

I'm certainly not contending that Valve is trying to do anything but preemptively defend themselves against class-action lawsuits, of course.  I just don't think that reason for doing so does outweighs the value of the class-action lawsuit as a tool of the consumer.

Quote
[Valve] in addition, offered to cover all reasonable costs arising from lawsuits being brought by individuals.

This is actually misrepresenting Section 12 of the Steam Subscriber Agreement.  The bit to which you refer is (and please correct me if I'm wrong):

Quote
If you seek $10,000 or less, Valve agrees to reimburse your filing fee and your share of the arbitration costs, including your share of arbitrator compensation, at the conclusion of the proceeding, unless the arbitrator determines your claims are frivolous or costs are unreasonable as determined by the arbitrator.

(Emphasis mine.)

Valve does not reimburse you the cost of your representation, which is realistically the largest cost you would face in such a matter (making it the largest barrier to action), and should arbitration fail, Valve does not oblige themselves to cover any of your costs for taking the case to small claims court, which would be your next and last recourse, under the new SSA.  Moreover, it's important to note that Valve agrees to pay these expenses at the conclusion of arbitration, so that if you cannot afford the filing fee and arbitration costs at the outset, then you cannot even get the process underway.  Contrary to your implication, none of this is exactly screaming to your customers, "Hey!  Hold us accountable, if we do something wrong!"  In fact, it's doing quite the opposite by removing a tool that allows the consolidation of claimants' legal costs, which would reduce the barrier to action by much more than Valve's promises in the updated SSA do.

Now, let's take a step back for a moment.  Of the three companies, who have instituted these contractual prohibitions against class-action lawsuits, which is most likely to reverse its decision?  Valve.  Of the three, Valve seems to be the one most aware of its critics and the one most willing to respond to its critics.  I'm not "bashing" Valve because I think they're as bad as Microsoft and Sony; I'm criticizing Valve because I think they're better than Sony and Microsoft and better than this change to the SSA.  By taking this position, encouraging others to do the same, and encouraging them to be vocal about that position, I think that a message can be driven home to the decision makers within Valve that wouldn't get nearly as far at Sony and Microsoft.

What would have the opposite effect of that message, though?  Maybe something like participating in a Steam marketing campaign, designed to extend the Steam user base and further yoke existing Steam users, while Section 12 of the SSA stands as it currently does.  Make no mistake that a marketing campaign is exactly what giving a Portal 2 coupon to all current owners of Portal 2 is, precisely because they hope that people will give the coupons away or use them to buy gift copies of Portal 2 for others.  It's actually a pretty cool marketing campaign, and were it not for my current objections with the Steam service, I'd enthusiastically participate.  As it stands, though, participation in this marketing campaign would serve to send Valve a message opposite the one I think they need to hear.  Therefore, my Portal 2 coupon will sit in my Steam inventory, until it expires.

 

Offline Scotty

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Re: Steam is zeh evil omg
So, Valve is evil because they don't give you money in order to sue them or preemptively pay you to allow representation in order to sue them?

Excuse me while I laugh my way back to playing Portal.

 
Re: Steam is zeh evil omg
Maybe read the whole post before replying.

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Steam is zeh evil omg
Maybe read the whole post before replying.

I do believe he did. You have not articulated a reason why this is bad beyond vague fearmongering that, by your own admission, is essentially pointless in that Valve has never had and is unlikely to ever have this problem.
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Offline deathfun

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Re: Steam is zeh evil omg
I think this discussion is best had with someone who is a lawyer

As for what to do with the vouchers, try trading them with random people who don't have the game. You may just find a nice mark to squeeze
"No"

 

Offline Dragon

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Re: Steam is zeh evil omg
I wonder, is there anybody on HLP who is a lawyer? Considering how many different people come here, that wouldn't be so surprising.

 
Re: Steam is zeh evil omg
Quote
You have not articulated a reason why this is bad beyond vague fearmongering that, by your own admission, is essentially pointless in that Valve has never had and is unlikely to ever have this problem.

And here, you're blatantly misrepresenting me.  I asked how many times class-action lawsuits against video game developers, publishers, and distributors had been dismissed as frivolous.  I never said that class-actions had never been taken against video game makers, nor that they were unlikely to ever be taken against Valve.

My position is that class-actions are the best tool in the consumer's toolbox for detering companies from misbehaving and then retaliating against them, should the deterence proves inadequate.  Valve's stated reason for removing this tool is some nebulous "expense and delay," when in the previous sentence of their news post, they conceded that class action lawsuits "have real benefits to customers."

Those real benefits, I can find evidence for:

• Sony sells a faulty generation of PS2 and refuses to replace them, if the fault does not manifest in the warranty period.  Class-action lawsuit ensures affected customers can receive replacement consoles.

• Gamestop misleads Californian customers about the inclusion of free DLC with used games.  Class-action lawsuit provides affected customers with reimbursement.

• Electronic Arts exploits its exclusive licenses to engage in monopolistic business practices with its sports titles.  Class-action lawsuit forces EA to allow those licenses to expire for a period of no less than five years.

• Electronic Arts makes advertising promise for the free inclusion of Battlefield 1943 with purchases of the PS3 version of Battlefield 3 and then fails to deliver the free game.  Class-action lawsuit forces EA to fulfill its advertised promise.

I have yet to find any evidence regarding frivolous class-action lawsuits that would actually be prevented by an update to an EULA or subscriber agreement.  When I look for frivolous lawsuits filed against video game makers, the bulk of what I find centers around Jack Thompson and others trying to blame video games for enabling the misdeeds of individuals, not customers falsely claiming to have been done wrong by the companies from which they bought their games.

If Valve has no reason to actively remove this right from their customers, then as their customers, why idly let them take it away, especially when it could prove useful in the future?

 

Offline Scotty

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Re: Steam is zeh evil omg
You're protesting a company trying to protect itself from lawsuits, simply because it's trying to protect itself from lawsuits.  There isn't some malevolent purpose behind it.  Take your stupid legal politics somewhere else, this thread is for Portal 2.

I'll probably end up giving mine to one of my friends who doesn't have it yet.

 

Offline jr2

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Re: Steam is zeh evil omg
I wonder, is there anybody on HLP who is a lawyer? Considering how many different people come here, that wouldn't be so surprising.
I think there at least was, not sure if he's still around, or if, indeed, my memory is even serving me right here..

EDIT: And add my name to the list of people that have a coupon that others can use.  Honestly, Valve is, at this point, in the same list as Google in my book, that is, {I think} they are actually trying to do the right thing at this point.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2012, 06:50:51 pm by jr2 »

 
Re: Steam is zeh evil omg
Quote
You're protesting a company trying to protect itself from lawsuits, simply because it's trying to protect itself from lawsuits.

I'm protesting Valve trying to take away the single, most useful tool consumers have at their disposal to prevent corporations from exploiting them, a tool that no other industry tries to take away from its customers, for a reason that's in no way borne out by history.  I'm fine with them protecting themselves from lawsuits, as long as they're doing it by maintaining legal and ethical business practices, not demanding that their customers sign away more of their rights, every time they want to utilize the Steam platform to buy or play a game.

What I'm not saying is that Valve is some evil entity that's conspiring against you.  Just as with any other business, though, good or bad, the class-action lawsuit is something that can keep them in check, and so denying that right to consumers, without a much better reason than what Valve has provided, is always going to be a bad thing.

I wonder, is there anybody on HLP who is a lawyer? Considering how many different people come here, that wouldn't be so surprising.
I think there at least was, not sure if he's still around, or if, indeed, my memory is even serving me right here.

There's a Filipino judge who pops round once in a while.  ;)

 

Offline MatthTheGeek

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Re: Steam is zeh evil omg
Alright guys. As said above,
This is not a thread to bash Steam. This is a thread to discuss what to do with the vouchers we got.

I hereby request split.
People are stupid, therefore anything popular is at best suspicious.

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Offline Klaustrophobia

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Re: Steam is zeh evil omg
sorry for the further derailing, but


 in the same list as Google in my book, that is, {I think} they are actually trying to do the right thing at this point.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3id-Fb8ooY


just for the record, if i have one of those coupons too someone can have it.

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Offline Davros

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Re: Steam is zeh evil omg