Author Topic: Valve, the SSA, and Class-Actions (split from Portal 2 coupon)  (Read 16402 times)

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Re: Valve, the SSA, and Class-Actions (split from Portal 2 coupon)
People aren't bothered by it because they've become complacent and fooled into thinking that what's best for Valve is the same as what's best for them.
A game going on sale isn't a benefit if you don't play it. It's not a benefit if you didn't want it in the first place. A sale is only beneficial if you enjoy the game to the extent that the discount is to your advantage. I suspect a lot of people who point to Steam sales as a "selling point" simply buy games and never or barely play them.
I don't really care for people who really think that there are things that are good for both the seller and the buyer. Compromise is the entire point of any trade that involves money. Valve just does what is best for them, and by that I mean offering good enough deals that people want to buy from them. If you think there's a game which costs as much (or less) than you're willing to pay for it, then you buy it.

Speaking of buying games, another knock against steam is that it has inconsistent pricing. Games often cost differing amounts for European and UK Gamers because the prices are not translated correctly. (Some games are priced the same in both Euros and USD though obviously they're not worth the same.)

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The reason why Steam is required for a lot of games is that it also offers a truckload of multiplayer features. It's something of a gaming Facebook, coupled with a decent anti cheat system. I don't really care about multiplayer (I think gaming world would be better without it, in fact), but for a lot of people it's the most important part of a game.

A lot of those systems I suspect are also a form of control. Matchmaking used to be about finding servers to play on, now a lot of software simply does it for you. Can games on Steam be modded? If Freespace 2 was on steam would we be able to play Blue Planet, Inferno, Derelict, etcetera? I don't honestly know for sure as I've not touched steam for a long time and the only games I've had on steam were either store-bought games, older games (PoP), or a few cheaper small-studio titles (Terraria).

I mostly just game on Xbox now. Which admittedly has a client, requires cash to play multiplayer (which I don't care about anyway), and which also has matchmaking and is probablly not very modable. But I own my games, at least as much as any person can with EULAs, and trade them in on occasion. I basically got Deus Ex and Dark Souls for free when I traded in three bigger named titles I didn't want anymore. Can't do that with digital distribution.

 

Offline Polpolion

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Re: Valve, the SSA, and Class-Actions (split from Portal 2 coupon)
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I'd also prefer being able to sell or trade my games if I wanted to.

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I'd prefer no monopoly at all.
I'd also prefer playing my PC games without need for a client.

The only way to do the first without the second is if you don't use digital distribution. GoG.com and similar sites won't work here because reselling and trading digital goods doesn't work, especially if you've got enough digital distributors to make it not a monopoly. You can probably define some standard to which all distributors could adhere, but it's unenforceable because we all hate DRM. Personally, I'm willing to put up with Steam since 1) it means I don't need to drive out to the nearest video game store or wait two days for it to be shipped to me, and 2) it collects most of my digitally owned goods into one package, meaning I don't need to maintain my own means of consolidating all of them (or stupider yet keeping a list of everything I own and downloading everything manually).

 

Offline Dragon

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Re: Valve, the SSA, and Class-Actions (split from Portal 2 coupon)
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The reason why Steam is required for a lot of games is that it also offers a truckload of multiplayer features. It's something of a gaming Facebook, coupled with a decent anti cheat system. I don't really care about multiplayer (I think gaming world would be better without it, in fact), but for a lot of people it's the most important part of a game.

A lot of those systems I suspect are also a form of control. Matchmaking used to be about finding servers to play on, now a lot of software simply does it for you. Can games on Steam be modded? If Freespace 2 was on steam would we be able to play Blue Planet, Inferno, Derelict, etcetera? I don't honestly know for sure as I've not touched steam for a long time and the only games I've had on steam were either store-bought games, older games (PoP), or a few cheaper small-studio titles (Terraria).
Steam games can be modded. Check ArmA community, which wouldn't use Steam at all if modding was impossible. Portal can be modded, Half-Life (entire series) can be modded, if FS was on steam it also could be freely modded.

Regarding inconsistent pricing, it's actually a bane of anyone who buys stuff in different countries. When I was in Switzerland, I ate three scoops of ice cream at restaurant's near Einstein's house in Brno, and paid 6 CHF for it. This translates to about 20 PLN, for which you could a big box of ice cream in Poland (it was still worth the price, since they were much better than Polish ice cream). For the Swiss, 6 CHF is pocket change, but for a Pole, it's real money. I've brought a handful of Swiss change with me (9,70 CHF) which is worth about 30 PLN, and used to be worth 50 (back when Swiss Frank skyrocketed).

Therefore, I find it unsurprising that games cost differently in different countries, it's another example of reasonable business practice (now that I think of it, maybe there's a way to exploit it, provided they aren't selling localized versions of their games).

 
Re: Valve, the SSA, and Class-Actions (split from Portal 2 coupon)
Therefore, I find it unsurprising that games cost differently in different countries, it's another example of reasonable business practice (now that I think of it, maybe there's a way to exploit it, provided they aren't selling localized versions of their games).

It's a digital distributor, there's no reason it should have different costs unless the government of said country is taking a cut and inflating the price. Anything else is just arbitrary BS.

The point is that Steam has varying prices for some games, whereas some other distributors do not. GoG.com has one set price worldwide for example. To the perspective of the western market (who typically gets the preferred price), the thought is "who cares" but if you're in one of those countries getting shafted I'd be sure to check out the alternatives to Steam.
 

 
Re: Valve, the SSA, and Class-Actions (split from Portal 2 coupon)
From what I've heard of digital distribution, platforms don't decide pricing, the publishers do.  1USD=1EUR isn't Steam's fault but rather the fault of the publishers who choose to sell on Steam.
17:37:02   Quanto: I want to have sexual intercourse with every space elf in existence
17:37:11   SpardaSon21: even the males?
17:37:22   Quanto: its not gay if its an elf

[21:51] <@Droid803> I now realize
[21:51] <@Droid803> this will be SLIIIIIGHTLY awkward
[21:51] <@Droid803> as this rich psychic girl will now be tsundere for a loli.
[21:51] <@Droid803> OH WELLL.

See what you're missing in #WoD and #Fsquest?

[07:57:32] <Caiaphas> inspired by HerraTohtori i built a supermaneuverable plane in ksp
[07:57:43] <Caiaphas> i just killed my pilots with a high-g maneuver
[07:58:19] <Caiaphas> apparently people can't take 20 gees for 5 continuous seconds
[08:00:11] <Caiaphas> the plane however performed admirably, and only crashed because it no longer had any guidance systems

 

Offline Dragon

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Re: Valve, the SSA, and Class-Actions (split from Portal 2 coupon)
Therefore, I find it unsurprising that games cost differently in different countries, it's another example of reasonable business practice (now that I think of it, maybe there's a way to exploit it, provided they aren't selling localized versions of their games).

It's a digital distributor, there's no reason it should have different costs unless the government of said country is taking a cut and inflating the price. Anything else is just arbitrary BS.

The point is that Steam has varying prices for some games, whereas some other distributors do not. GoG.com has one set price worldwide for example. To the perspective of the western market (who typically gets the preferred price), the thought is "who cares" but if you're in one of those countries getting shafted I'd be sure to check out the alternatives to Steam.
"Arbitrary BS" is another word for "Adjusting pricing to the market". The same thing will be more expensive in countries with a stronger currency. Digital distribution would be an exception to that if it wasn't business (GoG doesn't do that, because it only took dollars last time I checked). Few would be able to afford American prices in countries like Poland, and the pricing is adjusted to maximize profits. It can't be too high, because people will not buy, and it can't be too low. Finding a midpoint where the profits are maximum is a science in itself.

Besides, can't you cheat it to buy from Poland or some other place with a worthless currency (I don't know if it's possible to buy from Slovenia, but their currency is worthless even from Polish perspective)? As long as you can stomach the costs of converting your money to said currency, you should be able to get a good deal.

 
Re: Valve, the SSA, and Class-Actions (split from Portal 2 coupon)
Speaking of Valve & Steam, I presume everyone has seen TotalBiscuit's video on it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BW5tn7NoRqo (July 20th)

If not it's worth a listen whether one agrees with him or not

 
Re: Valve, the SSA, and Class-Actions (split from Portal 2 coupon)
Dragon, you could use some sort of proxy setup to make Steam think you're from a different country, but they've prohibited that in their terms of service and your account could get banned if you do that.
17:37:02   Quanto: I want to have sexual intercourse with every space elf in existence
17:37:11   SpardaSon21: even the males?
17:37:22   Quanto: its not gay if its an elf

[21:51] <@Droid803> I now realize
[21:51] <@Droid803> this will be SLIIIIIGHTLY awkward
[21:51] <@Droid803> as this rich psychic girl will now be tsundere for a loli.
[21:51] <@Droid803> OH WELLL.

See what you're missing in #WoD and #Fsquest?

[07:57:32] <Caiaphas> inspired by HerraTohtori i built a supermaneuverable plane in ksp
[07:57:43] <Caiaphas> i just killed my pilots with a high-g maneuver
[07:58:19] <Caiaphas> apparently people can't take 20 gees for 5 continuous seconds
[08:00:11] <Caiaphas> the plane however performed admirably, and only crashed because it no longer had any guidance systems

 

Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: Valve, the SSA, and Class-Actions (split from Portal 2 coupon)
I'm going to address the following from karajorma, klaustrophobia, and Ghostavo in one swoop:

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If this favours the customer so much, why has Valve done it? What's in it for them? And exactly what class action suits were they expecting in order to introduce this?

I suspect it may actually be in response to that EU court ruling about digital rights and in anticipation of blood-sucking tort lawyers descending on a class-action suit against the largest digital distributor in the business.  It's much less of an issue for Valve to settle arbitration claims with individual customers throughout the US versus fight a class-action lawsuit where the customers are going to see a much smaller fraction of any potential award than the lawyer they hire.

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valve isn't forcing themselves into arbitration.  i assume you had that option before this change.  all they are doing is removing the class-action option.  and regardless of which one is better for the consumer in any particular case, denying the option CAN'T be a good thing. it MIGHT not be a bad thing, but if there is ONE instance where a class-action would have been appropriate and beneficial that is now forbidden, that's one too many, when absolutely nothing was gained on the other end.  ok, they agreed to pay the arbitration fee.  i have no idea how that works, but i do know that in pretty much every lawsuit ever, the settlement/ruling includes the legal fees of the winner (imo, as it should be).  so that's also nothing lost by valve.

honestly i don't think any of this means much, because if it ever DOES come up, i expect there will be a lawsuit about what valve did even being legal.  which if there's any amount of actual justice left in the legal system, it won't be.  hell, you even can still file a class-action suit.  valve can't physically stop you.  what they will do is point to the clause in their defense, at which point the judge might very well not give a flying **** that valve tried to take that right away and proceed.

Actually, arbitration requires both parties to consent, either through agreement or contract.  So yeah, Valve is forcing everyone, themselves included, into arbitration to settle claims.  Litigated awards in civil suits don't always or even most of the time award costs.  Again, class-actions suits are highly overrated for the benefit to the litigants.  There is a reason why torts have the worst reputation in legal circles and why the sue-happy culture in the US is frequently denigrated - it's because the class-action process is abused, overused, and doesn't actually help legitimate victims as much as individual litigation would.  As for the arbitration fee, a significant barrier to individuals instituting legal proceedings is the cost of court filing and lawyers.  Arbitration eliminates both of those and Valve has actually reduced the barrier further by reimbursement of the (much less in arbitration) filing fee.

Contract law concerning EULAs is still evolving, so there's no way to predict whether or not changing the EULA with no recourse could hold up to a court challenge in these circumstances.  Technically, you have agreed to a contract dismissing the use of class-action suits, so a judge is obligated to uphold that provision unless the contract itself or the means under which it was signed are found to be coercive or fraudulent.

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Forcing binding arbitration IS taking away legal rights. In the most extreme cases you end up with people having to fight for years to be heard in courts. If you find court systems to be stacked in favor of the corporations, forced arbitration with them is the equivalent of resigning. Who do you think pays the arbiters and who do you think makes more repeat business with them, you or the corporation?

The fact is that when Sony did almost the exact same thing, people threw a fit, but now that it's their darling Valve, people will take it up the arse and ask for more.

I don't really care that it's Valve so much; more that there's this knee-jerk response that eliminating class-action provisions is a bad thing.  When it's done with a little give-and-take, it can be quite fair.  In this case, Valve has committed their own position to binding arbitration and is reimbursing some costs.

Binding arbitration is fairer than the legal process in general as arbitrators are obligated to provide written decisions based on the merits of the case.  Arbitration doesn't require legal filing of the nature of the court process, nor true legal arguments, meaning that a corporation can't out-lawyer you.  And the choice of the arbitration firm is irrelevant; they have to be impartial or no one will use them and their decisions could be subject to an eventual legal challenge.  When you agree to a contract, the parties have the right to define the terms and the means under which that contract will be reviewed.  Judicial review of contracts is not guaranteed, nor is it the best means of dispute resolution the majority of the time.

At the end of the day, anyone on this board could easily engage in a binding arbitration process without legal counsel.  Even I probably couldn't represent myself in a civil court case reviewing contract law, by contrast.
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Offline Ghostavo

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Re: Valve, the SSA, and Class-Actions (split from Portal 2 coupon)
And the choice of the arbitration firm is irrelevant; they have to be impartial or no one will use them and their decisions could be subject to an eventual legal challenge.

This is exactly what I disagree with you, because they will be biased towards the corporations is exactly why they will be used. The fact that their decisions might be overturned on an eventual legal challenge (which might take years as I said before) is of no satisfaction. You are simply creating obstacles for people that want to pursue conventional legal channels.
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Offline Dragon

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Re: Valve, the SSA, and Class-Actions (split from Portal 2 coupon)
Dragon, you could use some sort of proxy setup to make Steam think you're from a different country, but they've prohibited that in their terms of service and your account could get banned if you do that.
How would they know if I'm not, for instance, using a laptop on a vacation trip? Checking ToS for this might be a good idea before attempting such maneuver.

 

Offline jr2

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Re: Valve, the SSA, and Class-Actions (split from Portal 2 coupon)
And the choice of the arbitration firm is irrelevant; they have to be impartial or no one will use them and their decisions could be subject to an eventual legal challenge.

This is exactly what I disagree with you, because they will be biased towards the corporations is exactly why they will be used. The fact that their decisions might be overturned on an eventual legal challenge (which might take years as I said before) is of no satisfaction. You are simply creating obstacles for people that want to pursue conventional legal channels.

Don't both parties have to agree to the arbitration suggestions anyways?  So if you get a rough deal, don't agree.

Actually, arbitration requires both parties to consent, either through agreement or contract.  So yeah, Valve is forcing everyone, themselves included, into arbitration to settle claims.

 

Offline Klaustrophobia

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Re: Valve, the SSA, and Class-Actions (split from Portal 2 coupon)


Actually, arbitration requires both parties to consent, either through agreement or contract.  So yeah, Valve is forcing everyone, themselves included, into arbitration to settle claims.

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requires both parties to consent

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Valve is forcing everyone into arbitration

does not compute.
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Re: Valve, the SSA, and Class-Actions (split from Portal 2 coupon)


Actually, arbitration requires both parties to consent, either through agreement or contract.  So yeah, Valve is forcing everyone, themselves included, into arbitration to settle claims.

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requires both parties to consent

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Valve is forcing everyone into arbitration

does not compute.

You're being "forced to consent" to the Steam EULA or you lose access to all of your games. That's apparently what happened to someone who disagreed. (Though, a quick search failed to confirm that. Maybe I'll try it myself and see what happens :D You might just get locked out of the store, which is what should happen)


By the way, whoever heard of a contract that could be ****ing re-written while it was in effect? A user should be able to say "no, I don't agree with the new contract" and be cut off from the 'service' but still have access to the content prior to the agreement going into effect. I'm no lawyer of course, but to mean it's not even a ****ing contract if it contains a clause saying it can be changed at any time. It's like getting into a fixed percentage on your mortgage and then having the bank decide to change it half way through "oh guess what, your interest rate is now 20% not 4%, and, if you don't agree to this you default on your loan and we take possession of your house".

(I don't know anything about mortgages either so I'm just pulling numbers out of my butt)

« Last Edit: August 23, 2012, 04:59:42 pm by Akalabeth Angel »

 

Offline Dragon

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Re: Valve, the SSA, and Class-Actions (split from Portal 2 coupon)
Unless there's some trick that makes it legal, this sounds pretty much like extortion. I'm pretty sure there's a law against changing a contract like that while it's in effect.
Now that I think of it, shouldn't there be a law against a contract that forbids people from filling a lawsuit? For example, what would happen if a bunch of people filled a class-action lawsuit anyway, despite the EULA, and mentioned that Valve tried to prevent them from taking legal action? Would the lawsuit get thrown out of the court without even being looked at, or would the situation be more complicated?

 

Offline Klaustrophobia

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Re: Valve, the SSA, and Class-Actions (split from Portal 2 coupon)
I'm betting the steam EULA, like every other one in existence, contains the clause "we reserve the right to change these terms and conditions, without notice" which technically would cover the forced change.  that doesn't stand up ethically, and hopefully would be struck down by a judge if it came up.  and yes, you still can file a class-action suit against valve.  they can't stop you from doing it.  what they will do is point to their clause in the legal proceedings, and hopefully the judge laughs in their face and strikes that clause down as illegal.
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Offline Aardwolf

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Re: Valve, the SSA, and Class-Actions (split from Portal 2 coupon)
You're being "forced to consent" to the Steam EULA or you lose access to all of your games. That's apparently what happened to someone who disagreed. (Though, a quick search failed to confirm that. Maybe I'll try it myself and see what happens :D You might just get locked out of the store, which is what should happen)

Reposting image from first page, for great justice:






IMO this is a much bigger issue than the specific maybe-objectionable issue that brought it to our attention.

 

Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: Valve, the SSA, and Class-Actions (split from Portal 2 coupon)
And the choice of the arbitration firm is irrelevant; they have to be impartial or no one will use them and their decisions could be subject to an eventual legal challenge.

This is exactly what I disagree with you, because they will be biased towards the corporations is exactly why they will be used. The fact that their decisions might be overturned on an eventual legal challenge (which might take years as I said before) is of no satisfaction. You are simply creating obstacles for people that want to pursue conventional legal channels.

You have a really skewed view of how binding arbitration works.  This process is used in collective agreement settlement with a fair bit of regularity, and the arbitration teams are every bit as impartial as a judge.
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Offline Dragon

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Re: Valve, the SSA, and Class-Actions (split from Portal 2 coupon)
I'm betting the steam EULA, like every other one in existence, contains the clause "we reserve the right to change these terms and conditions, without notice" which technically would cover the forced change.  that doesn't stand up ethically, and hopefully would be struck down by a judge if it came up.  and yes, you still can file a class-action suit against valve.  they can't stop you from doing it.  what they will do is point to their clause in the legal proceedings, and hopefully the judge laughs in their face and strikes that clause down as illegal.
Then I don't see what's the problem. If this clause is unenforceable, then why worry about it? They want to prevent class-action lawsuits, but since they can't really do it, then what's the problem?

 

Offline The E

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Re: Valve, the SSA, and Class-Actions (split from Portal 2 coupon)
*ahem*

Yeah, sorry about that, Americans. Seems your Supreme Court has ruled on the issue and found that it is perfectly all right for a company to include language in their contracts that forbids CA lawsuits.
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