Author Topic: Combining GTVA and UEF technology  (Read 27456 times)

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Offline MatthTheGeek

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Re: Combining GTVA and UEF technology
It always surprised me that they never developed any better anti-subsystem weapons than the energy-hogging Akheton and the short ranged Stiletto/Stiletto II.
*cough*Trebuchet*cough*Maxim*cough*
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Offline The E

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Re: Combining GTVA and UEF technology
Well, here's a scary thought for you: A Deimos with its missile launchers loaded with Slammers :P
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Offline TwentyPercentCooler

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Re: Combining GTVA and UEF technology
It always surprised me that they never developed any better anti-subsystem weapons than the energy-hogging Akheton and the short ranged Stiletto/Stiletto II.
*cough*Trebuchet*cough*Maxim*cough*

Technically, the Treb is an anti-bomber warhead, and the Maxim is anti-armor. Of course, it doesn't stop us from using them for anti-subsystem work, but especially in the case of the Maxim, it's merely passable in that role - the Archer shines. Trebs are good for getting rid of turrets, but Paveways are a lot more convenient when you have to take out some actual subsystems. The Maxim and Treb weren't used in an anti-subsystem capacity during the main FS2 campaign, which suggests to me that they weren't really intended for it (again, not to say they weren't useful, though).

Well, here's a scary thought for you: A Deimos with its missile launchers loaded with Slammers :P

I've actually tried it in FRED. It's terrible. Almost as sadistic as giving them EMP missiles.

 

Offline Dragon

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Re: Combining GTVA and UEF technology
The problem with Archer is that it's huge. It wouldn't fit on any existing GTVA strikecraft, and the concept of a hardmounted weapon is new to them. It seems that GTVA had a problem with developing a good anti subsystem weapon, because they always had to make sure it wouldn't damage the hull. Notice that both best anti-subsystem weapons in GTVA are quite destructive and can bring smaller ships (transports and cruisers) down if you're not careful. Archer is better than Maxim in that regard, but still suffers from the same problem. The reason Paveway is better might be that UEF needed such weapons a lot more than GTVA, and thus better developed them.

 

Offline headdie

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Re: Combining GTVA and UEF technology
The problem with Archer is that it's huge. It wouldn't fit on any existing GTVA strikecraft, and the concept of a hardmounted weapon is new to them. It seems that GTVA had a problem with developing a good anti subsystem weapon, because they always had to make sure it wouldn't damage the hull. Notice that both best anti-subsystem weapons in GTVA are quite destructive and can bring smaller ships (transports and cruisers) down if you're not careful. Archer is better than Maxim in that regard, but still suffers from the same problem. The reason Paveway is better might be that UEF needed such weapons a lot more than GTVA, and thus better developed them.

indeed until the invasion given Ubuntu I imagine disabling problematic craft is preferable to shooting them down
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Offline TwentyPercentCooler

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Re: Combining GTVA and UEF technology
Well, if they were to win the war, they'd have all the production facilities for the Archer AND the Uriel. It probably wouldn't take the TEI engineers long to modify the Uriel to make it fit in with GTVA tactical doctrine, or perhaps to modify the frame. Failing that, maybe they could jury rig some Archers to fit on the bottom of an...Erinyes, maybe? I know the bloody Uriel is twice as long, but it doesn't look as if the Archer runs the entire length. You Blue Planet devs would know a lot more about that than I, though. Just a thought.

At the very least, throw some Paveways in a wing of Ares and, instead of pop-up Treb strikes against enemy fightercraft, pop-up Paveway strikes against turrets, or perhaps engines. Crippling Shivan vessels would be especially effective because of their emphasis on forward firepower (personally, it also explains to me one of the reasons why the UEF was able to hold on as long as it did, and why the GTVA in the Sol theatre was reluctant to commit assets at first - Steele was not only crazy, but he was commanding one of the few ships that wouldn't be completely helpless while temporarily disabled). Having the capability to disable and disarm from obscene ranges, in a more or less fire-and-forget capacity, seems to me like it'd be a heck of an addition to the GTVA's tactics.

 

Offline Black_Yoshi1230

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Re: Combining GTVA and UEF technology
Thirded for the Slammer. The UEF definitely beat the GTVA in the area of field suppression weaponry (well, cluster warheads at any rate, the only other missile I believe holds that distinction is the Trebuchet, used for the "shoot first, ask later" philosophy).

I wonder what the GTVA did with all of their Piranha and Infyrno missiles, did they realize they were crap as fighter mounted weaponry and say "screw it, Trebuchet everything?"

Also, while it may seem unconventional and untested yet (as in, nobody bothered to write a test mission for it), I was also thinking adapting the Sidhe. Basically the UEF's shotgun in space, I mean, on paper, all that buckshot could theoretically take down Seraphim and Nephilim bombers in a few shots, because of the havoc wreaked on multiple sections of the shields and hull (not to mention with such a spread, the odds of getting into a prolonged confrontation with a Dragon could be potentially shorter).


As for the primaries, it's hard to say.  The Kayser and Rapier are almost identical, and the UEF doesn't really have an equivalent to the Balor, which appears to be the future of GTVA primary weapons.  The heavier UEF primaries; the Archer, Redeemer, and Vajra, all have one big flaw: Ammo.  More ammo-reliant weapons means more ammo to be carried by the support ships, which either means less ammo overall or bigger (and more vulnerable) support ships.  Their sheer effectiveness might be worth it, or it might not.  Like I said, it's hard to say.


You have a point there. Although the Rapier is more or less the UEF's second [or third]-generation Prometheus, and in some franchises (the BattleTech universe stands out for one), typically ammo-based weapons can do a metric ton of damage, but are offset by logistics (for any of you BT nuts, Battle of Tukayyid, 3052). I highly doubt the UEF can make something equal to the Balor, but that was a derivative of the UD-8 Kayser, and if the UEF could get their hands on the latter, they could make something work, but given the timeframe, it'd be damn near impossible.
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Offline MatthTheGeek

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Re: Combining GTVA and UEF technology
I wonder what the GTVA did with all of their Piranha and Infyrno missiles, did they realize they were crap as fighter mounted weaponry and say "screw it, Trebuchet everything?"
You need to play WiH more. Most if not all bombers fielded by the Tevs carry Piranhas, and will use em when attacked.

As for the Infyrno, well, not only is it not very efficient, and the AI sucks at using it, but it is designed to wipe out thick bomber formations, which isn't exactly the typical UEF deployment doctrine now is it.
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Offline Alex Heartnet

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Re: Combining GTVA and UEF technology
When did they declare UEF tech was inferior?  It is in a lot of cases, but that's a conclusion drawn from observation, not propaganda.
Well, they haven't yet, because the war is still going on :P  But propaganda is a significant part of the GTVA's doctrine, if the Colossus is any indication.

 

Offline headdie

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Re: Combining GTVA and UEF technology
my impression is that the GTVA's issue is with UEF's more relaxed military readiness as opposed to their equipment.
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Offline Dragon

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Re: Combining GTVA and UEF technology
As for the Infyrno, well, not only is it not very efficient, and the AI sucks at using it, but it is designed to wipe out thick bomber formations, which isn't exactly the typical UEF deployment doctrine now is it.
I think they still keep the Infyrno, and are ready to use it if the need arises. It simply didn't arise yet. UEF aren't usually deploying bombers and heavy fighters in large formations, not to mention their bombers are quite well armored, so a Trebuchet is a better weapon against them. Infyrno can make mincemeat of Shivan bomber and Basilisk formations, but isn't too well suited for use against UEF.

 

Offline Klaustrophobia

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Re: Combining GTVA and UEF technology
i tried using the infyrno a couple times.  it is horrible.  you rarely encounter tight formations unless you're on top of where they jump in.  which outside of the game, is VERY unlikely.
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Offline An4ximandros

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Re: Combining GTVA and UEF technology
Mass Effect does have magic disposal tech, we are never shown it, but the Codex states one thing and they did another in the cutscenes (they never show any radiators or anything get hot on the ships...) in fact the only Sci-Fi game that I've seen to have radiator-"like" parts is AFF:PS... (I believe it would be best if we took this part of the discussion elsewhere for the sake of the thread)

On topic, I think it would be foolish of the GTVA to use fed weaponry, they have been developed for entirely different theaters (GTVA to fight Shivans across multiple systems, UEF for a single one.)
We have infinite beamz as the GTVA, the only good thing out of the UEF arsenal would be the AM-Missile farms, customized for GTVA missile armaments (something like a Supernova MK2 comes to mind.)

All other weapons on the UEF arsenal would be a drag on GTVA tactics as they require ammo, the only thing that would require little adaption are missiles, hence it being the only logical choice, with all that AM it's not unfeasible to thing the GTVA could come up with enhanced designs for Trebs and other missiles.

All of the UEF's (Military) ship designs are useless to the GTVA since they don't fit with their tactics, which would mean time and money spent on making new strategies, refitting UEF ships and other things that would be a waste of resources when you could use them to build already optimized designs.

 

Offline TwentyPercentCooler

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Re: Combining GTVA and UEF technology
Mass Effect does have magic disposal tech, we are never shown it, but the Codex states one thing and they did another in the cutscenes (they never show any radiators or anything get hot on the ships...) in fact the only Sci-Fi game that I've seen to have radiator-"like" parts is AFF:PS... (I believe it would be best if we took this part of the discussion elsewhere for the sake of the thread)

On topic, I think it would be foolish of the GTVA to use fed weaponry, they have been developed for entirely different theaters (GTVA to fight Shivans across multiple systems, UEF for a single one.)
We have infinite beamz as the GTVA, the only good thing out of the UEF arsenal would be the AM-Missile farms, customized for GTVA missile armaments (something like a Supernova MK2 comes to mind.)

All other weapons on the UEF arsenal would be a drag on GTVA tactics as they require ammo, the only thing that would require little adaption are missiles, hence it being the only logical choice, with all that AM it's not unfeasible to thing the GTVA could come up with enhanced designs for Trebs and other missiles.

All of the UEF's (Military) ship designs are useless to the GTVA since they don't fit with their tactics, which would mean time and money spent on making new strategies, refitting UEF ships and other things that would be a waste of resources when you could use them to build already optimized designs.

The part about not quite fitting in with GTVA tactical doctrine is true in a few ways, BUT...those "optimized designs" have been getting completely trashed by the UEF fighter corps. Considering that most Shivan fighters (barring, perhaps, the Mara) are even weaker individually, well...I personally think they'd be stupid not to at least experiment with some UEF craft. It's not as if the GTVA doesn't need logistical support at all. In fact, they're only so dependent on it in the Sol Theatre because they're on the offensive. If they were defending the GTVA systems from a Shivan attack, they'd have the same logistical luxuries that the UEF enjoyed.

It's all about tradeoffs, really. If they save even one destroyer because they spent the time adapting the Uriel to GTVA technology, so that it could rapidly and effectively render Shivan capital ships useless, would it have been worth it? I'm not making those decisions, so I don't know what they'd say. But a destroyer, that's a lot of expensive kit...and more importantly, a lot of not-easily-replaceable personnel.

I've actually been, for my own amusement, going through some of the retail FS2 missions and replacing GTVA ships with UEF ones. I know that it's not that simple, because those missions don't have all the incredibly brilliant scripting work of the BP team, and I don't know crap about FRED, but even without the fancy tricks, it's scary how much more effective the UEF ships are against the Shivans. But, it's against FS2 era ships, which isn't a fair comparison with the post-TEI GTVA. So, I went through some of them again, and used the fancy new stuff. The Atalanta is beautifully capable, and the Nyx makes the weak Shivan fighters piss their pants. In comparison, the Kent is an interception machine. Both the Balor and the Vulcan chew up and spit out bombs. All of the warships have massively improved point defenses, to a point where I had to give the Shivan ships better AI classes and stronger weapons just to make anything a challenge.

I think there's a lot to be said for integrating UEF technology, though. There is nothing like the Uriel for a heavy assault role; nothing in the GTVA arsenal even comes close to being as effective as crippling enemy warships. Plus, despite its size, it's really not all that ungainly - I never had a problem defending myself. 6 Rapiers eat up anything that gets in the way, and Gattlers in the first bank make it good at shooting bombs, too. It does everything, far better than the Herc II, Ares, or Erinyes could ever dream of, and its ability to stay the hell away from enemy AAA beams while it goes about its job gives it excellent survivability. I think that's well worth having to carry around Gattler and Archer ammo - given that the Gattler is a mass driver, and the Archer a gauss cannon, the projectiles are likely very small.

Sending in Narayanas and Uriels against a large strike force of Shivans could eat major threats (large beam cannons, especially) and clear the way beautifully for a hunter-killer group like Serkr Team to jump in at just the right place, with coordinates verified by the artillery units, to wipe the floor with said strike force. The potential for some unique combined-arms tactics is there.

 

Offline An4ximandros

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Re: Combining GTVA and UEF technology
According to BP canon, all Shivan weapons are operating at reduced efficiency, in fact, it says the Shivans could have wiped out the GTVA even with the TEI developments (got this for the AoA Techroom), it's not unbelievable they could also stomp the UEF, BP seems to be the time when the Shivans decided they had it with these m*********ing Humans & Vasudans on this m*********ing Milky Way.

 

Offline MatthTheGeek

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Re: Combining GTVA and UEF technology
This has been said again and again, but it can't be said enough : logistics are the true problem here. UEF ships are high-efficiency / low-duration concepts. They can't operate more than a few hours straight before needing to dock and resupply (for fighters, probably days for capital ships). Tev crafts can hold up weeks in the wild until it becomes a problem (remember that Kappa wing fighter in the nebula beyond Gamma Draconis ? Remember the Imperieuse hiding for weeks without any sort of logistical support while already being short on supplies in WiH ?).

The Tevs have an entirely different ship-building philosophy than the UEF. I wouldn't be surprised if they already have the technology, resources and means to build ships equivalent or even superior to the Uriel or the Narayana in term of efficiency/firepower/whatever. But they don't. Why ? Because it's expensive, because their pilots aren't so great, you can find all the reasons you want. But ultimately, the Tevs fight a marathon while the UEF fights a sprint, and that doesn't only show in their tactics, or in the state of their fighter corps, but also very heavily in the ship designs on both sides.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2012, 04:00:54 am by MatthTheGeek »
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Offline TwentyPercentCooler

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Re: Combining GTVA and UEF technology
This has been said again and again, but it can't be said enough : logistics are the true problem here. UEF ships are high-efficiency / low-duration concepts. They can't operate more than a few hours straight before needing to dock and resupply (for fighters, probably days for capital ships). Tev crafts can hold up weeks in the wild until it becomes a problem (remember that Kappa wing fighter in the nebula beyond Gamma Draconis ? Remember the Imperieuse hiding for weeks without any sort of logistical support while already being short on supplies in WiH ?).

The Tevs have an entirely different ship-building philosophy than the UEF. I wouldn't be surprised if they already have the technology, resources and means to build ships equivalent or even superior to the Uriel or the Narayana in term of efficiency/firepower/whatever. But they don't. Why ? Because it's expensive, because their pilots aren't so great, you can find all the reasons you want. But ultimately, the Tevs fight a marathon while the UEF fights a sprint, and that doesn't show only in their tactics, or in the state of their fighter corps, but also very heavily in their ship design on both sides.

It is worth mentioning that both stated cases happened while the GTVA was on the offensive, Kappa wing through Knossos I and Imperieuse in the Sol Theatre. Going on the offensive into systems you don't control, in the FS 'verse, is essentially choking yourself. It makes sense that the GTVA was developing greater autonomy, even in retail FS2, because they were first attacking the NTF-controlled systems, and then, into the Knossos (although that was unexpected, I'm sure they didn't mind having offensively-minded doctrines in that case). It also makes sense, when you're up against a wall (like they believe they are, with the next Shivan invasion just a matter of time), to stick with that you know and improve on what you have. But, one of the biggest strengths we humans have, something that's touched on in a lot of great media, is that we're endlessly creative and adaptable. The GTVA ran into the Shivans, saw how well their technology worked, and decided to assimilate it. Shielding systems, beam weaponry, weapons technology...all advanced in a big way because of contact with the Shivans. They didn't copy most of Shivan technology outright (they could have built Dragons after capturing Arjuna I in FS1, and definitely Maras during the course of FS2), but they decided to cherry-pick and integrate the best aspects of the captured technology with their own.

Something I've been wondering about after discussing all this: not to imply anything negative against any of the BP team or the direction in which it's being taken - it's one of my favorite things to play, even after I've beaten the darn campaigns like a dozen times now - but, why DID the TEI design very offensively-minded ships when tasked with better defending the GTVA systems? They have the choke points, they have their own systems behind them for support. In the case of another Shivan attack, the Shivans would be running the marathon, running the gauntlets. We'd be ready for them. Mobile beam cannons, artillery and missile platforms, space mines, sentry guns...those are the kind of things I'd expect. Is the TEI's philosophy partially related to  :v: mentioning that if there was a FS3, there'd be an attack on "Shivantown?"

 

Offline MatthTheGeek

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Re: Combining GTVA and UEF technology
why DID the TEI design very offensively-minded ships when tasked with better defending the GTVA systems?
The answer should be obvious. The Shivans are hunters. They are swift, powerful, and they have endless numbers. Any defensive posture against them is fundamentally flawed. What do you think even 3 or 4 Tev fleets massed to blockade a single node could do against a couple of Dantes with Sath escort ? Or anything worse the Shivans could come up with ? After Capella, the GTVA cannot afford the risk of believing they can sustain and win against a full-scale Shivan assault.

The Tev standard contingency in case of the Shivan incursion would be to attack on all fronts in order to break the Shivan momentum, and gain enough time to meson bomb the nodes.

Failing that, exodus. Why do you think they designed Anemois if their actual objective was to hold at all costs their controlled systems, which have secure and abundant supply lines ? If they can't stop the Shivans quick enough, I'm pretty sure the GTVA has contingencies for BSG-like exodus as a last resort to preserve mankind and zodkind.

Capella has demonstrated that the Shivans can't be defeated conventionally. Any encounter with the Shivans is not a battle for victory, it's a battle for survival. A desperate one.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2012, 04:21:56 am by MatthTheGeek »
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Offline TwentyPercentCooler

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Re: Combining GTVA and UEF technology
why DID the TEI design very offensively-minded ships when tasked with better defending the GTVA systems?
The answer should be obvious. The Shivans are hunters. They are swift, powerful, and they have endless numbers. Any defensive posture against them is fundamentally flawed. What do you think even 3 or 4 Tev fleets massed to blockade a single node could do against a couple of Dantes with Sath escort ? Or anything worse the Shivans could come up with ? After Capella, the GTVA cannot afford the risk of believing they can sustain and win against a full-scale Shivan assault.

The Tev standard contingency in case of the Shivan incursion would be to attack on all fronts in order to break the Shivan momentum, and gain enough time to meson bomb the nodes.

Failing that, exodus. Why do you think they designed Anemois if their actual objective was to hold at all costs their controlled systems, which have secure and abundant supply lines ? If they can't stop the Shivans quick enough, I'm pretty sure the GTVA has contingencies for BSG-like exodus as a last resort to preserve mankind and zodkind.

Capella has demonstrated that the Shivans can't be defeated conventionally. Any encounter with the Shivans is not a battle for victory, it's a battle for survival. A desperate one.

They weren't expecting the Shivans to pop out in Gamma Draconis, though. I understand that the warships themselves have to be fast, agile, and capable of swift strikes and equally swift retreats. I'm not suggesting they should be stupid enough to park a blockade in front of an incoming Shivan attack, no matter how large or capable that blockade happens to be. But, sentry platforms and mines and things like that aren't meant to blockade indefinitely, even in strict FS2 canon. They're basically stalling tactics. Think about a nice, fat cluster of anti-subsystem homing mines planted in a node. They disable the first few large ships that jump through, and all of a sudden, you've got a traffic jam. A Sathanas dead in the water takes up a lot of real estate, and thus buys a lot of time.

Perhaps I should rephrase, although I'm not actually expecting an answer this time, since it might be privileged information: did the TEI think along those lines? I know why it's even a question - it's not the kind of thing that would have shown up in either the alternate timeline or the Sol Theatre, but perhaps in the GTVA-controlled systems.

 

Offline MatthTheGeek

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Re: Combining GTVA and UEF technology
Well the Tevs aren't bad at sentry guns. The Zods themselves let them handle it. It has been said that one of the yet-unseen use for Tev cruisers was as potential minelayers, deploying clusters of sentry guns to defend strategical positions or cover retreats.

Those would be, however, support tools first and foremost. Sentry guns are only efficient in very specific circumstances, and easily destroyed. That holds true for both small sentries like Cerberus guns, and Mjolnirs.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2012, 04:50:19 am by MatthTheGeek »
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MatthTheGeek: you mispelled grâce
Awaesaar: grace
batwota: oh right :P
Darius: ah!
Darius: yes, i like that
MatthTheGeek: the way you just spelled it it means fat
Awaesaar: +accent I forgot how to keyboard
MatthTheGeek: or grease
Darius: the killing fat!
Axem: jabba does the coup de gras
MatthTheGeek: XD
Axem: bring me solo and a cookie