[Luis Dias]

Perhaps the UEF isn't as peaceful as suggested.

Let us remember that it was a coterie of psychohistorians and sociopsychologists who "predicted" the ideological armaggedon brought on about by a "radical" religious group that would eradicate away the GTVA's own existence.

Consider two different scenarios. The first that this particular coterie of experts were actually right in projecting the downfall of the current GTVA's political authority among its own population, and the eventual degradation and collapse of its structure. This is completely realistic: the "american dream" of freedom and wealth that has inspired a lot of revolutions around the world, and has brought about actual collapse of totalitarian regimes. It's something also called "Soft Power".

The second that this coterie of scientists were actually wrong, on either purely scientific reasons (missed key elements perhaps) or by fiat (scientific malfeasance to induce politics). In this scenario it wouldn't be impossible a joint effort by both the GTVA and the Sol planets to share their knowledge and technologies, and why not some good old standards of living. In this scenario, the exodus to Sol wouldn't be too much of a big problem, etc.


Now, I am inclined to believe the first, that is, that the GTVA's current structure is unsustainable politically given the riches and the "feel-good" politics of Sol. What is obvious here, from all our historical references, is that the powers that be were too afraid of the explosion of unintended consequences that their scientific models were hinting at. Think about "tipping points", "extreme events", strange attractors diverging and all sorts of fears that were entering the minds of the psychohistorians of the GTVA. Let us consider that these minds were used to decades of a simple state of affairs where nothing particularly revolutionary was happening inside the GTVA space of politics. Let us consider as well the fearful nature of humans itself. They let their fears drive their actions.

[-Norbert-]

And the UEF doesn't ignore the Shivan's existance. Why else would they ever have build the Solaris' and their heavy bombers? Surely not to combat the Gef.

Perhaps the UEF isn't as peaceful as suggested.

No reason to expect UEF torpedoes would even work against Lucifer shields.  Antimatter-based Tsunamis were useless, and kinetic weapons aren't known to be effective against shields either.  The UEF had no reason to expect another Shivan incursion wouldn't have a Lucifer leading it, so if they were preparing for another Shivan attack, wouldn't it make more sense to invest in new technologies to pierce shields, rather than building more weapons that have been demonstrated to be ineffective?  Like, say, beams?

Even the FS2 GTVA was better adapted to fighting Shivans than the current UEF is.

Even if you have weapons that can pierce the Lucifer shield, you still need a military strong enough to deal with all the other Shivan ships. For all the UEF knew, the surviving Shivan ships might have wiped out ever Human and Vasudan outside of Sol, after the nodes collapsed.

As for the state of readiness, we really can't tell much about that, can we?
The current UEF ships would have wiped the floor with anything the Shivans had during the great war and even in the FS2 conflict they would have done very well, with all their anti-subsystem weapons Shivan capships would have been de-beamed quite quickly and thus been left almost helpless.
As far as the UEF knew, before the re-opening of the node, the Lucifer was the only thread they really had to worry about. And just because we havn't seen any anti-lucifer equipment doesn't mean the UEF doesn't have any.
But since the GTVA doesn't utilize such a shield, there is no need take those shieldbusters out of storage and thus we never know about it.

For all we know the node network might be used to create a subspace bubble around a Lucifer and thus shut down it's shields, or maybe the Occulus can put out a radiation with the same effect.
Unless a Lucifer comes knocking at the UEFs door we'll probably never know what kind of plans, protocolls and contingencies (or lack thereof) the UEF had for such a case.

Not seeing it doesn't mean it doesn't exists.

[Aesaar]

Even if you have weapons that can pierce the Lucifer shield, you still need a military strong enough to deal with all the other Shivan ships. For all the UEF knew, the surviving Shivan ships might have wiped out ever Human and Vasudan outside of Sol, after the nodes collapsed.

  After a few years, they'd have started picking Terran and Vasudan signals coming from nearby stars.  Alpha Centauri is a Vasudan world and is only 4.3 ly away.  Sirius is definitely colonized and is 8.6 ly away.  If they cared about what happened outside Sol, chances are they checked for signals coming from there.

As for the state of readiness, we really can't tell much about that, can we?
The current UEF ships would have wiped the floor with anything the Shivans had during the great war and even in the FS2 conflict they would have done very well, with all their anti-subsystem weapons Shivan capships would have been de-beamed quite quickly and thus been left almost helpless.
As far as the UEF knew, before the re-opening of the node, the Lucifer was the only thread they really had to worry about. And just because we havn't seen any anti-lucifer equipment doesn't mean the UEF doesn't have any.
But since the GTVA doesn't utilize such a shield, there is no need take those shieldbusters out of storage and thus we never know about it.

Considering Sol had a head start in building beams because they had access to the wrecks of the Lucifer's own, while the GTVA had to start from scratch (because FS1-era Shivan ships don't have beams), I don't thing it's unreasonable to assume that if the UEF was genuinely worried that the Shivans would come back, they'd have built beam cannons by now.  I think giving every ship a chance to damage the Lucifer is better than risking it all on a countermeasure that might not even work.

Moreover, the Shivans aren't slow.  When they move into a system, they get to their objective fairly quickly.  The UEF cannot fall back like the GTA did in FS1.  So you expect me to believe that the UEF was so worried about Shivans coming back that the Scalpel, a non-lethal weapon, was the standard-issue fighter weapon, and most capships were equipped with dummy rounds?  Come on.  They responded quickly at the end of AoA, but they knew the GTVA was coming and they had reason to be suspicious.  The Shivans would have just jumped in and started shooting at the weaponless Fed ships.

The only evidence that the UEF expected the Shivans to come back is a throwaway line in FS1's ending cinematic.

For all we know the node network might be used to create a subspace bubble around a Lucifer and thus shut down it's shields, or maybe the Occulus can put out a radiation with the same effect.

There's absolutely nothing to indicate that either of these things is even possible.  The gates have never given any indication that they're anything more than linked subspace drives, and if the Oculus could kill shields, it's a feature that would have been used at some point in the last 18 months, if only to shut down fighter shields.

[Luis Dias]

Even if you have weapons that can pierce the Lucifer shield, you still need a military strong enough to deal with all the other Shivan ships. For all the UEF knew, the surviving Shivan ships might have wiped out ever Human and Vasudan outside of Sol, after the nodes collapsed.

  After a few years, they'd have started picking Terran and Vasudan signals coming from nearby stars.  Alpha Centauri is a Vasudan world and is only 4.3 ly away.  Sirius is definitely colonized and is 8.6 ly away.  If they cared about what happened outside Sol, chances are they kept something checking for signals coming from there.  So I'm pretty sure the UEF knew the GTVA existed.

This is possible, but it pressuposes that sufficient detectable radiation is actually produced in Alpha Centauri by the Vasudans. Such quantity of radiation may well be beyond the reach of their technology. It's still a veeery long distance.

However, if it is possible, it does put a sort of a plot hole in the whole BP canon, since it would be entirely possible for the GTVA to have previously communicated with Earth (albeit with an 9 year lag) and thus learnt about the Ubuntu, the UEF learnt about the Sathanas fleet, etc.,etc.

Considering Sol had a head start in building beams because they had access to the wrecks of the Lucifer's own, while the GTVA had to start from scratch (because FS1-era Shivan ships don't have beams), I don't thing it's unreasonable to assume that if the UEF was genuinely worried that the Shivans would come back, they'd have built beam cannons by now.

It does not necessarily follow. I understand that point, but if you believe you have an answer to the beam canon technology, you don't necessarily need to build a beam canon, just the counter-measure. And they have the counter-measure.

[Aesaar]

It does not necessarily follow. I understand that point, but if you believe you have an answer to the beam canon technology, you don't necessarily need to build a beam canon, just the counter-measure. And they have the counter-measure.

It's better than starting with nothing, which is what the GTVA had to do (well, GTI with the Hades, but the point stands).

[MatthTheGeek]

Considering Sol had a head start in building beams because they had access to the wrecks of the Lucifer's own, while the GTVA had to start from scratch (because FS1-era Shivan ships don't have beams), I don't thing it's unreasonable to assume that if the UEF was genuinely worried that the Shivans would come back, they'd have built beam cannons by now.  I think giving every ship a chance to damage the Lucifer is better than risking it all on a countermeasure that might not even work.

Bad assumptions. All Sol had was a whole bunch of completely destroyed and unsalvageable debris.

The GTI, on the other hand, had hours and hours of classified scans from the Lucifer, plus ton of captured Shivan technology ranging from salvageable debris to captured cargo (even live Shivans) which were kept in their HQ in Beta Aquilae. They also had humanity's best engineers and scientists.

Sol had nothing of that. Not hard to deduce who'd manage to develop beams first. The GTVA just salvaged GTI's research.

[Aesaar]

Bad assumptions. All Sol had was a whole bunch of completely destroyed and unsalvageable debris.

The GTI, on the other hand, had hours and hours of classified scans from the Lucifer, plus ton of captured Shivan technology ranging from salvageable debris to captured cargo (even live Shivans) which were kept in their HQ in Beta Aquilae. They also had humanity's best engineers and scientists.

Sol had nothing of that. Not hard to deduce who'd manage to develop beams first. The GTVA just salvaged GTI's research.

Why wouldn't they have the scan data from the Lucifer?  Earth was the GTA's capital.  Almost certainly where fleet HQ and GTI HQ were.  Seems to me that'd be the first place they'd send it.  Especially with the Lucifer coming their way.  Same could be said of those best scientists.

[headdie]

when building countermeasures and know they work you need something to test it against and two wrecked cannons wont do it you need working enxamples and more to the point if I understand the BP fluff correctly you need the targeting system working, using the shivan settings to test it properly, also even if you manage that you still will need to record the system in action on your new shivan fleet as they could very easily be using different frequencies etc before your countermeasure works, meaning you still need something of yours to be blasted before you can start efforts to jam the weapons.

on the GTI issue I would have to agree that having the GTI headquarters in Sol would make the most sence.

[MatthTheGeek]

Why wouldn't they have the scan data from the Lucifer?  Earth was the GTA's capital.  Almost certainly where fleet HQ and GTI HQ were.  Seems to me that'd be the first place they'd send it.  Especially with the Lucifer coming their way.  Same could be said of those best scientists.

GTI's HQ was in Beta Aquilae (canon, Silent Threat. And BP canon, Silent Threat Reborn). The GTA obviously wasn't expecting the node to collapse. Better keep the data safe than trying to transit it all the way to Earth, especially when all the top scientists are already at Beta Aquilae.

Besides, the GTI was already fairly independent from GTA High Command by the time of the Great War. Wouldn't be surprised if some of the most sensitive research done there was... omitted from official reports to High Command.

[Luis Dias]

Matth is owning the discussion. Good points regarding the intel canon overall.

[Aesaar]

GTI's HQ was in Beta Aquilae (canon, Silent Threat. And BP canon, Silent Threat Reborn). The GTA obviously wasn't expecting the node to collapse. Better keep the data safe than trying to transit it all the way to Earth, especially when all the top scientists are already at Beta Aquilae.

I'd like a quote.  Haven't played ST:R in a while.  All I remember is that GTA everything was in Delta Serpentis or Beta Aquilae for obvious reasons.  Does it ever actually say that GTI HQ was in Betaq all along?

And why not transmit it to Earth?  Who is there to keep it from?  The Vasudans already have it, and I don't think the Shivans care.  Not sending it to Earth makes no sense.  You don't lose information by sending a copy to someone.

Besides, the GTI was already fairly independent from GTA High Command by the time of the Great War. Wouldn't be surprised if some of the most sensitive research done there was... omitted from official reports to High Command.

Because it wouldn't make sense to send Earth all the available data on the Lucifer once it was headed their way.  Especially not after what happened to Vasuda. 

[MatthTheGeek]

Then maybe you should replay STR right now instead of arguing based on faulty memories.

EDIT: if you really want a quote, lrn2wiki.

[General Battuta]

This could be a pretty interesting conversation if it weren't so antagonistic!

[redsniper]

[Dilmah G]

This could be a pretty interesting conversation if it weren't so antagonistic!

I second this notion! I get so damn tired of reading these when people behave like dicks to each other. These are so much more fun when we can take other people's opinions and gaps in their knowledge like normal people and not like 30 year-old neckbeards who derive self-worth from belittling other people over the internet.

Was this what Battuta meant?

Well I don't ****ing know, I'm Australian!

(psst, that means I'm drunk).

So have a beer! Discussions about freespace are more fun with freebeers! (see what i did theere0

[General Battuta]

This could be a pretty interesting conversation if it weren't so antagonistic!

I second this notion! I get so damn tired of reading these when people behave like dicks to each other. These are so much more fun when we can take other people's opinions and gaps in their knowledge like normal people and not like 30 year-old neckbeards who derive self-worth from belittling other people over the internet.

Was this what Battuta meant?

Well I don't ****ing know, I'm Australian!

(psst, that means I'm drunk).

So have a beer! Discussions about freespace are more fun with freebeers! (see what i did theere0

A good post, from a good man!

[Dilmah G]

Why thank you, good sir!

[Aesaar]

Then maybe you should replay STR right now instead of arguing based on faulty memories.

EDIT: if you really want a quote, lrn2wiki.

I would if I had FS2 installed on this computer.  I don't.  You also still haven't answered the question: Why wouldn't they send their info on the Lucifer to Earth?  Did they just feel like being contrary?  1) keep all info to ourselves. 2) Earth gets destroyed. 3) ??? 4) Profit.

Also, you're making assumptions too.  You say the GTI was diverging from GTA command.  This is true in STR.  It is not necessarily true during or before FS1.  For all we know, they used the chaos and loss of Sol command to isolate themselves.  Maybe Sol command kept close tabs on GTI.  And if not, I'm pretty sure Command would at least demand all info on the Lucifer to plan their attack.  Arguing that they might not send all of it is not supported more than anything else.

[headdie]

This could be a pretty interesting conversation if it weren't so antagonistic!

I second this notion! I get so damn tired of reading these when people behave like dicks to each other. These are so much more fun when we can take other people's opinions and gaps in their knowledge like normal people and not like 30 year-old neckbeards who derive self-worth from belittling other people over the internet.

Was this what Battuta meant?

Well I don't ****ing know, I'm Australian!

(psst, that means I'm drunk).

So have a beer! Discussions about freespace are more fun with freebeers! (see what i did theere0

A good post, from a good man!

[Luis Dias]

... can we get back on track?

I have a serious question from something that was raised by a different point by Aesaar.

Namely, if it was, or not, possible to communicate with Earth by making a very big dish in Alpha Centauri pointed towards its system, after the Lucifer's battle?

If it is, how much of BP canon is threatened by this very idea?

And if it is, perhaps we should immediately abandon this thought, flag it with a "dangerous" sign, and ignore it henceforth? Whistle looking at the sky and something?