[mjn.mixael]

$5 says that the day some extremist comes for Bobboau because he happens to live in a country that needlessly insulted on the extremist's religion.. he'll change his tune. Till then, we'll keep seeing these kinds of topics and posts from him...

[Flipside]

I didn't say Political Leaders or Historical Figures, I said Religion. And the last time there was a cartoon campaign against a religion on this scale, that was when it happened. You can invoke Godwin all you like, but that won't change history, and it won't change the psychological impact those cartoons had on Germany at the time, or the psychological affect of these cartoons now. Burying your head in the sand and going 'lalalala' won't change that.

If you'd have asked a mid 1930's German whether he thought those cartoons would lead to massive persecution and violence towards Jews, he would have said 'No way, maybe some people will get carried away, but we are sensible about these things".

[Bobboau]

"political leaders, historical figures, and fictional characters"
Mohamed is one or more of those.

ah, so you want to go down this road, eh? well... you know, there was a group of people once who wanted to ban things printed that they didn't like, they had book burnings and if you printed things that went against what they thought you'd be shipped off to a camp to die. I'll give you a hint, using Nazi's to try and win an argument is ****ing lazy and sad.

sorry you don't like our Entartete Kunst

[Flipside]

The books they were burning were the ones that did not agree with their world-view, and burning them was wrong, no doubt, but you seem to be confused between the idea of destroying knowledge that already exists, and creating deliberately offensive images in order to broadcast them and create anger.

Expecting all Muslims to live up to your definition of what is acceptable and what is not is absolutely identical to the mentality of a Radical Islamic preacher saying that the West must live by Sharia Law. There's no difference, it's all about forcing other people to live by your rules rather than their own. And if they get angry about this idea, it's apparently their fault.

I swear, Empathy and Respect are sitting in a bar somewhere nursing a drink and wondering where humanity went.

[Mongoose]

ah, so you want to go down this road, eh? well... you know, there was a group of people once who wanted to ban things printed that they didn't like, they had book burnings and if you printed things that went against what they thought you'd be shipped off to a camp to die. I'll give you a hint, using Nazi's to try and win an argument is ****ing lazy and sad.

No, what's lazy and sad is erecting a massive straw-man in the form of gay marriage to make a comparison that doesn't hold up in the first place.  It is nice to know that basic civility is lost on you, though.

[Aardwolf]

Who are you suggesting is trying to dictate your way of life? The Muslims who get offended? Or your fellow citizens/forumites?



The Muslims who get offended cannot stop you from voicing your opinion, whether they would like to or not.

Your fellow citizens/forumites expect you to behave yourself. Do you perceive their criticism as an attempt to dictate your behavior?

[Legate Damar]

Expecting all Muslims to live up to your definition of what is acceptable and what is not is absolutely identical to the mentality of a Radical Islamic preacher saying that the West must live by Sharia Law. There's no difference, it's all about forcing other people to live by your rules rather than their own. And if they get angry about this idea, it's apparently their fault.

So saying that it is wrong to kill people over a drawing is the same as saying that everyone should convert to your religion by force?

[mjn.mixael]

Bobboau has clearly gone from defending his viewpoint to merely trying to "win" the argument. The interesting part of this thread has run its course.

Let the semantics arguments fly...

[Bobboau]

in what way is it a straw man? Drawing cartoons, even especially offensive ones, is free speech, a central value of western civilization that the Islamic world is trying too get us to curtail. Gay marriage is an emerging western phenomenon that is an expression of another central western value, self determination, this is something that the Islamic world could just as easily lash out against. my question was why there would be a difference in how it was handled given that what is at play in both scenarios is core values of western civilization.

and flip, I don't care if ultimately they cannot accept it, they are perfectly welcome to isolate themselves from us if they really want to. I am mainly concerned with what effects this will have on OUR culture, I do not want to live in a world where I have to worry about maybe offending someone when I'm trying to make a point, because quite frankly some peoples world views are so ****ed up that reality is offensive to them.

god that ****ing alcubierre drive cannot get built fast enough, I want off this rock.

[Scotty]

"political leaders, historical figures, and fictional characters"
Mohamed is one or more of those.

That's not what Flipside said, so you might wanna rephrase your criteria.

[Flipside]

Expecting all Muslims to live up to your definition of what is acceptable and what is not is absolutely identical to the mentality of a Radical Islamic preacher saying that the West must live by Sharia Law. There's no difference, it's all about forcing other people to live by your rules rather than their own. And if they get angry about this idea, it's apparently their fault.

So saying that it is wrong to kill people over a drawing is the same as saying that everyone should convert to your religion by force?

Nope, I'm saying the claiming that Muslims shouldn't take offense at these images because they don't offend you personally is the same as saying 'You must adopt my worldview or I'll just keep insulting you". Similar, but not identical. This isn't about the killings that have taken place, it's about the assumptions that just because we don't particularly care what people say about us or our beliefs, that neither should anyone else. It's about projecting our own values onto other cultures and then pointing fingers if they dare to not be like us.

[Bobboau]

That's not what Flipside said, so you might wanna rephrase your criteria.

the cartoons were of Mohamed, so if Flipside is talking about something else, then it is off topic. and I never said my criteria was exhaustive, I left things like religious leaders, and groups of people as implied.


they can take offense all they want, I take offense all the time from things that people say and do, it doesn't mean they don't have the right to say and do those things.

[Flipside]

No-ones saying they don't have the right to do it, but there was a time when self control meant that just because you could do a thing, it did not follow that you must do that thing. There was one and only one purpose to releasing the later cartoons, and that was to piss off Muslims in the name of 'Freedom of Speech'. So why is everyone surprised that they are pissed off?

[Bobboau]

when someone is telling you you can't do something is when you must.

[Flipside]

[Mongoose]

when someone is telling you you can't do something is when you must.

Ah, the mentality of either an angsty teenager or a four-year-old.

[Aardwolf]

Bobboau, respond to my post plz?

[mjn.mixael]

when someone is telling you you can't do something is when you must.

Ah, the mentality of either an angsty teenager or a four-year-old.

Interestingly, this is increasingly becoming the peak of American maturity. We're waaaaay too entitled for our own good.

[yuezhi]

I would ignore them.

the plan is to keep on insulting them till they get over it. till they have the same attitude toward us we have toward them, that is "they are just going to do whatever the **** they want to do"

they cannot riot perpetually, eventually they will need to eat.

till they get over it?
well i don't see any progress over stuff like israel and draw moh day. all of which were years ago.

[666maslo666]

Everybody is fine with freedom of speech in most circumstances, it is when the message is controversial or insulting that freedom of speech is truly tested. This was bound to happen sooner or later. I am afraid either muslims will get desensitized to insults (unlikely), or this controversy will repeat itself every few years, lol, and in the end it will be the west that gets desensitized to rioting muslims..