Author Topic: New French cartoons inflame prophet film tensions  (Read 28361 times)

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Offline achtung

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Re: New French cartoons inflame prophet film tensions
Culture wars are so silly.

It's like a tug of war with a rope made of people.

Wait wait, maybe a boxing match with gloves made of people.

I wonder if Apple vs. Android will ever get this bad. Maybe Android fans drawing effigies of Steve Jobs. Then the Apple fans destroying those little kiosks in malls that sell phones.

I'll stop.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2012, 12:08:20 am by Swantz »
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Offline watsisname

Re: New French cartoons inflame prophet film tensions
Hey guys, look, those guys are different.  Let's go make fun of them.   Oh lol wut, they're rioting?  Hahaha, oh look now they're killing people?  Wow they're a ****ed up culture.  Let's make fun of them some more.  Also I gotta post this on HLP since I already know most people there think I'm the one being dumb and I just loooove trolling people.  Trololololol!
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Offline achtung

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Re: New French cartoons inflame prophet film tensions
Hey guys, look, those guys are different.  Let's go make fun of them.   Oh lol wut, they're rioting?  Hahaha, oh look now they're killing people?  Wow they're a ****ed up culture.  Let's make fun of them some more.  Also I gotta post this on HLP since I already know most people there think I'm the one being dumb and I just loooove trolling people.  Trololololol!
See what we should do is just direct all of the extremists to anonymous imageboards, and then get them hooked. They'll just stay in their basement all day screaming at each anonymous post by another person screaming. Perfect!

Maybe even add a bot that posts "differing views" that they have to contest frequently, just to keep them busy. A digital strawman-bot. It's perfect!
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Offline Androgeos Exeunt

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Re: New French cartoons inflame prophet film tensions
So if you want to help that part of the world improve Human Rights, Education and Freedom then don't expect anything for at least a decade, we've shot ourselves in the foot, and whilst these countries remain as they are, they remain a threat to others. Rather than encouraging these countries towards a more 'Free' attitude, we've done nothing but put them off it for years.

You're being optimistic. The Middle East has stood still for millennia. If you think a bunch of misfits can just go in and change their way of life within a decade, you'd be wrong, because they've been at it for at least that long.


$5 says that the day some extremist comes for Bobboau because he happens to live in a country that needlessly insulted on the extremist's religion.. he'll change his tune. Till then, we'll keep seeing these kinds of topics and posts from him...

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Offline Legate Damar

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Re: New French cartoons inflame prophet film tensions
Expecting all Muslims to live up to your definition of what is acceptable and what is not is absolutely identical to the mentality of a Radical Islamic preacher saying that the West must live by Sharia Law. There's no difference, it's all about forcing other people to live by your rules rather than their own. And if they get angry about this idea, it's apparently their fault.

So saying that it is wrong to kill people over a drawing is the same as saying that everyone should convert to your religion by force?

Nope, I'm saying the claiming that Muslims shouldn't take offense at these images because they don't offend you personally is the same as saying 'You must adopt my worldview or I'll just keep insulting you". Similar, but not identical. This isn't about the killings that have taken place, it's about the assumptions that just because we don't particularly care what people say about us or our beliefs, that neither should anyone else. It's about projecting our own values onto other cultures and then pointing fingers if they dare to not be like us.

There's a difference between being offended and being offended enough to literally murder people over it. You do not find that to be a disproportionate reaction?

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: New French cartoons inflame prophet film tensions
when someone is telling you you can't do something is when you must.

I'm telling you that you can't go into a biker bar and call people out for being anti-homosexual without them getting violent in the same manner you're complaining about from the Muslim world.



I'll be round to give you a straw to drink your lunch out of when you decide to stand up against that by going into a biker bar and calling them out on their intolerance. Or is it easier to agree with the principles when it's not your life on the line?
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Re: New French cartoons inflame prophet film tensions
I would ignore them.

the plan is to keep on insulting them till they get over it. till they have the same attitude toward us we have toward them, that is "they are just going to do whatever the **** they want to do"

they cannot riot perpetually, eventually they will need to eat.
The actual ****? this is the same as saying "Let's portray Hitler as a hero and glorify the holocaust until the jews get over anti-semetism"   
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Offline Luis Dias

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Re: New French cartoons inflame prophet film tensions
Most people in this thread is abhorrently missing the whole point of this crysis, and the equivocation starts with the notion that somehow "US" have "TROLLED" the muslims, so they are just striking back, and therefore "WE" shouldn't have done so in the first place.

The problem with this version of events is that it completely ignores the fundamental difference between a totalitarian muslim state (and beware that most muslims in the world do not live in totalitarian states) and those states who have a core belief in individualism and liberty.

The latter states are *not* in the same category as the former. It is precisely the inability of some muslim fanatics to understand this basic point that they equivocate the ramblings, trollings, irate statements and what not of a free citizen in a free country with statements from a *whole* country. To these people, it is not a douche in country X that made a stupid cartoon / flick / whatever, it is the whole country that did so (by allowing them, thus condoning them and so on).

This has been true for years and years. When a danish newspaper went slightly off the rails, they weren't flooded by "offended" comments on their mailboxes, the danish embassy was bombed.

Think about that for a second. Now the counterpart is that even in this thread, this equivocation persists, even among people who should know better. No people, it wasn't "US" who offended muslims, it was a person, two people, three. With their own personal motives. Perhaps their motives were pretty high concept and very important, perhaps they were assholes. However, it *was not the "west" that trolled the muslims*.

This is very important to understand, because the whole discussion goes off the rails in this precise equivocation.

For the next question should not be "Should we troll the muslims in this way?". That's a fair question that can only, in a free country that is, concern the people asking that same question, and it shall be left for each one of us to answer that question. The real question that these fanatics confront us with is:

What shall we do when someone on our free countries decides (for whatever reason) to state something that infuriates this particular population leading to violent riots?

That is the question we should be asking. Not the other one.

So, again, people who seem to say that the newspapers and the moviemakers are the source of this problem:

What are you prepared to do to solve this problem?

You do have solutions:

1. Create laws to stop people from insulting every religion / group;
2. Censor every material that can anger people;
3. Make our leaders issue apologies for every time some random citizen decides to do something stupid;
4. Punish the random stupid citizen for annoying barbarians on the other side of the planet;
5. etc.

My only comment at this point is to make clear that if you choose any of those solutions or something equivalent, I will consider you to be an enemy of core values that I hold dear such as the freedoms our parents and grandparents fought so hard (and some died) for them. I will fight any change of these core values of our societies to the bitter end, and if that means I am against an angry mob of barbarian medieval gangsters who cannot bear the thought of someone somewhere else in the other part of the globe stating silly things about themselves, SO BE IT.

 

Offline Mikes

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Re: New French cartoons inflame prophet film tensions
when someone is telling you you can't do something is when you must.

I'm telling you that you can't go into a biker bar and call people out for being anti-homosexual without them getting violent in the same manner you're complaining about from the Muslim world.



I'll be round to give you a straw to drink your lunch out of when you decide to stand up against that by going into a biker bar and calling them out on their intolerance. Or is it easier to agree with the principles when it's not your life on the line?

... unless Bikers start rioting and killing people every time there is a .... frigging * C a r t o o n *  about Biker Gay intolerance in some other countries obscure newspaper it is hardly the same thing.

Just saying ;)

For all intends and purposes the extremists reaction displayed is that of a very insecure adolescent... i.e. the tiniest implication of an insult is enough to summon emotional armageddon.

I would ignore them.

the plan is to keep on insulting them till they get over it. till they have the same attitude toward us we have toward them, that is "they are just going to do whatever the **** they want to do"

they cannot riot perpetually, eventually they will need to eat.
The actual ****? this is the same as saying "Let's portray Hitler as a hero and glorify the holocaust until the jews get over anti-semetism"

There are people who are actually denying or even gloryfing the holocaust. (Idiots that they may be).
There also are extremist newspapers of all kinds and antisemitic insults and/or jokes displayed in certain TV channels and newspapers.

Do you see anyone rioting in the streets over those?


The mature reaction is to ignore the idiot and move on - not to start killing people everytime someone says something stupid about you.




As for dealing with insecure adolescents... it may certainly be a good idea to appeal to people not to aggravate them needlessly and you can even try (keyword try ;) ) to educate people to be polite and considerate in general.
You can under no circumstances *force them* to however.... not unless you think compromising your whole society based on the whims of an insecure adolescent is a good idea. lol.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2012, 09:41:10 am by Mikes »

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: New French cartoons inflame prophet film tensions
1. Create laws to stop people from insulting every religion / group;
2. Censor every material that can anger people;
3. Make our leaders issue apologies for every time some random citizen decides to do something stupid;
4. Punish the random stupid citizen for annoying barbarians on the other side of the planet;
5. etc.

You've missed the most obvious one. Give them a taste of their own medicine and insult them repeatedly until they stop.


And if they don't stop, you've proved that you can't even insult someone from a country with free speech into stopping, why on Earth would they expect the same tactic to work in The Middle East? :p
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Offline StarSlayer

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Re: New French cartoons inflame prophet film tensions
I'm not really sure what the best course of action is.  Quite frankly I typically think poking people in the eye over religious issues is crude.  So long as they are not trying to influence policy to fit their dogma or spouting something I find objectionable they should be left alone.  Putting the folks on point in greater danger is also extremely irritating and stupid.  When that WBC bonehead threatened to burn a Quran some months back I felt he should be taken out to a FOB in Afghanistan and the troops allowed to slap the stupid out of him.  That said, now that its actually happened and they've killed people over it, I think it changes the equation a little bit.

If we actively did try to stop the generation of such material then we are are curtailing our rights because of fear of reprisal.  That sticks in the craw of many folks, even ones who normally think it's dumb as **** to to try and incite the Muslim community.  And its clear, this wasn't an act of satire or humor it was done as a jab.  If we did actually change how we act in response then it might set the precedent in the minds of zealots that such barbaric behavior in the future is a successful method of influencing policy in the west.  Internally what message would it send if we did stop it?  Freedom of speech allows for some extremely stupid and hateful behavior.  Fringe groups of all kinds are allowed to parade through the streets and spew forth their hate mongering diatribes.  Are we going to turn around and tell the minorities, jews, people of alternate sexual orientation and other victims that "Hey, because you didn't take a connip**** and murder random folks these groups behavior is acceptable, but we're going to suddenly cow tie because the Muslim zealots flip out."

No easy answers.

 
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Offline Scotty

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Re: New French cartoons inflame prophet film tensions
You're being optimistic. The Middle East has stood still for millennia. If you think a bunch of misfits can just go in and change their way of life within a decade, you'd be wrong, because they've been at it for at least that long.

This is absolutely, totally, and completely wrong.  It's only the last few hundred years or so (which interestingly coincides with the colonial period) that it's been having trouble.  For all of the European Dark Ages, the Middle East was experiencing a Golden Age of scientific, mathematical, medicinal, and cultural advancement that took the West eight hundred years to catch up to.

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: New French cartoons inflame prophet film tensions
1. Create laws to stop people from insulting every religion / group;
2. Censor every material that can anger people;
3. Make our leaders issue apologies for every time some random citizen decides to do something stupid;
4. Punish the random stupid citizen for annoying barbarians on the other side of the planet;
5. etc.

You've missed the most obvious one. Give them a taste of their own medicine and insult them repeatedly until they stop.

I haven't included that one on the list because I have no problems whatsoever with that particular solution. At. All.

If that were the case at hand, there would not be any thread here.

So, even if I were to disagree with anyone who considered these newspapers of being [insert insult here], I'd gladly watch in the sidelines as shiny examples of free speech values in motion.

And all would be well.

Quote
And if they don't stop, you've proved that you can't even insult someone from a country with free speech into stopping, why on Earth would they expect the same tactic to work in The Middle East? :p

That's not the problem at hand here. The problem I recognize here is watching every "Very Serious Person" in our western countries blaming the victim, and declaring that the problem is the free speech itself. That there exist bullies around the world is not even news worthy.

 

Offline Flipside

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Re: New French cartoons inflame prophet film tensions
As Starslayer said in the previous cartoon thread, it is amazing how willing people are to sit at home and put other people in danger for what they believe in.

Once again, and this really, really must be about the 8th time I've had to say this. Self Control does not require laws.  You don't defeat an oppressive regime by trolling them till they kill people. When your actions are leading to the death of other people, some of them your own countrymen, when this is being done purely for ****s and giggles, then maybe people should actually be trying to act like the 'Wise Man' we so arrogantly label ourselves as?

Edit : I do think that part of the problem is the 'The Whole world is America' attitude. If I were in the US and someone asked me for a good example of Freedom of Speech, it would be the WBC, because they troll and troll and yet are legal under the First Amendment. I would NOT, however, use the WBC as an example to other countries, because if I said, "Hey! You too can have people hurling abuse during the funeral of a soldier", most countries would reply "Well, good luck with that.". I'd be far more likely to use the Modest Proposal or the like as an example. Showing people the most extreme, troll-ridden side of Freedom of Speech is probably the worst way possible of introducing our ideals to the Eastern world in exactly the same manner as the most extreme side of Islam is the worst possible introduction to the Western one.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2012, 01:15:51 pm by Flipside »

 

Offline Flipside

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Re: New French cartoons inflame prophet film tensions
Expecting all Muslims to live up to your definition of what is acceptable and what is not is absolutely identical to the mentality of a Radical Islamic preacher saying that the West must live by Sharia Law. There's no difference, it's all about forcing other people to live by your rules rather than their own. And if they get angry about this idea, it's apparently their fault.

So saying that it is wrong to kill people over a drawing is the same as saying that everyone should convert to your religion by force?

Nope, I'm saying the claiming that Muslims shouldn't take offense at these images because they don't offend you personally is the same as saying 'You must adopt my worldview or I'll just keep insulting you". Similar, but not identical. This isn't about the killings that have taken place, it's about the assumptions that just because we don't particularly care what people say about us or our beliefs, that neither should anyone else. It's about projecting our own values onto other cultures and then pointing fingers if they dare to not be like us.

There's a difference between being offended and being offended enough to literally murder people over it. You do not find that to be a disproportionate reaction?

When that offence is being deliberately generated by an outside force in order to play on the ignorance of the masses. Personally, considering the cartoon artists knew it would happen if they released the cartoons, then you are entirely missing the point. People are printing things that they know will lead to people being killed. Is that acceptable in your books? Because it sure isn't in mine. Frankly, it's murder by proxy.

In the US there is the 'Temporary Insanity' plea, which is where someone has been pushed so hard for so long that they just snap. But once again, America is the world except in the case of America...

 

Offline Legate Damar

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Re: New French cartoons inflame prophet film tensions
You dodged the question. Is it or is it not an appropriate reaction to kill people over drawings and badly-made movies?

 

Offline Flipside

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Re: New French cartoons inflame prophet film tensions
Is it or is it not appropriate to deliberately troll a low-tech society until they start killing people?

Is that the 'best' we have to offer the world?

Edit : The deaths were sad and wrong, no-one has denied that, it's a failure to take responsibility for deliberately riling people who don't know better into a killing fury that seems to be being avoided. Us trying to force our definition of Freedom of Speech onto them is no different to them trying to force Sharia on us, it's unacceptable, and generates stubbornness and intolerance on both sides.

If you're happy with the prospect of never being being able to form a bond of respect with these countries, of them willingly staying in the past because most of their experience of the Modern world is insults, what they would consider as 'blasphemy' and America dictating what is and is not acceptable in their societies, then you just go right on trolling.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2012, 01:33:31 pm by Flipside »

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: New French cartoons inflame prophet film tensions
OMG are we talking about using the prime directive for Muslims?

Here's the catch. The cartoons were not made in Lybia, Syria or Iran.

They were made in France.

Two comments:

1. The newspapers should have known better than to do what they did;
2. We should all be defending their right for having been the jackasses they were (while criticizing them).

The second point never seems to be highlighted enough. It takes a really disturbed ****ed up world when I have to tune to ****ing Le Pen to hear a voice of wisdom on this matter. That wasn't supposed to happen. The "mainstream" pundits and politicians have let ****ing Le Pen be the voice of Free Speech!

If that isn't a symptom of how our society has gone somewhere really wrong, I don't know what it is.

 

Offline achtung

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Re: New French cartoons inflame prophet film tensions
Is it or is it not appropriate to deliberately troll a low-tech society until they start killing people?

Is that the 'best' we have to offer the world?

Should we start killing ambassadors every time some pissant Islamic Republic spews some state-sponsored hate speech?
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Offline Flipside

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Re: New French cartoons inflame prophet film tensions
No, because the whole point is we are supposed to be better and more mature than these countries. Though we are doing a pretty **** job of proving that.