[Luis Dias]

Yes, clearly we are not more mature than them. I mean, what kind of a society draws cartoons to make fun of people?

Clearly just as worse as killing embassadors. Clearly.


EDIT: I mean, if this is the difference between "our two cultures" (oversimplification anyone?) and you don't consider it non-trivial, I have little else to say than Oh. My. ****in. God. And I'm an atheist.

EDIT 2: Respect is not a one-way street. Respect is not rolling your ass under your interlocutor's boots.

[Legate Damar]

Is it or is it not appropriate to deliberately troll a low-tech society until they start killing people?

Is that the 'best' we have to offer the world?

Edit : The deaths were sad and wrong, no-one has denied that, it's a failure to take responsibility for deliberately riling people who don't know better into a killing fury that seems to be being avoided. Us trying to force our definition of Freedom of Speech onto them is no different to them trying to force Sharia on us, it's unacceptable, and generates stubbornness and intolerance on both sides.

If you're happy with the prospect of never being being able to form a bond of respect with these countries, of them willingly staying in the past because most of their experience of the Modern world is insults, what they would consider as 'blasphemy' and America dictating what is and is not acceptable in their societies, then you just go right on trolling.

Stop dodging and answer the question, please.

[Flipside]

When the death of those people is directly attributable to the release of cartoons designed to create fury, cartoons that people knew would lead to violence and death, then the people who promote those cartoons are not exercising Freedom of Speech, they are hiding behind it.

@Legate : I did answer the question. Read my post before responding next time please.

[StarSlayer]

I think it might be worth refocusing since I no longer am sure what the positions are.

I think everybody agrees it's dumb move to jab a beehive of fanatics, but the world is full of dumb people who are going to draw crude cartoons and make stupid films.  Freedom of Speech allows them to do that.  So unless we decide to restrain Free Speech then its going to continue to happen because you simply can't fix stupid. 

So are we arguing that its dumb to piss of fanatics or that we should restrain our freedoms?

As much as I think the people who do this sorta crap are wastes of life, I am vehemently opposed to restraining Free Speech if its simply to appease a bunch of neobarb zealots.   

[achtung]

No, because the whole point is we are supposed to be better and more mature than these countries. Though we are doing a pretty **** job of proving that.

When your countrymen are dying in other countries at the hands of angry mobs due to the small actions of a few attention seekers that are well within their rights in the country they live in, who is to blame? I mean the videos/images are rude, but they dont call for genocide. They poke at religious beliefs. Unless the muslim world finds a way to get over this, this will happen time and time again. The western world will not enact laws to protect their precious beliefs, and there will always be a troll to poke fun. This can only end in an even more violent culture war, or the muslim world finding a way to suck it up.

[jr2]

Actually, usually, it's some radical leader who stirs up the mobs for political reasons.  You think Muslims regularly check out French political cartoons?  No, some mullah found out about it, made a huge stink, and got his followers steamed. Makes him more 'important' as he's defending their beliefs, or so he thinks.  Really, radicals won't change wankers' opinions any more than wankers' cartoons will change radical opinions.  The worst a wanker can do is provide the fuel for the radical leaders to stir up their people, and the worst the radicals can do is stir up their people to the point where other countries are threatened enough to curb-stomp them back to where they belong.  Highly ineffective, but there you go.

[Luis Dias]

I think everybody agrees it's dumb move to jab a beehive of fanatics, but the world is full of dumb people who are going to draw crude cartoons and make stupid films.  Freedom of Speech allows them to do that.  So unless we decide to restrain Free Speech then its going to continue to happen because you simply can't fix stupid. 

So are we arguing that its dumb to piss of fanatics or that we should restrain our freedoms?

As much as I think the people who do this sorta crap are wastes of life, I am vehemently opposed to restraining Free Speech if its simply to appease a bunch of neobarb zealots.   

Exactly what I said previous page, I couldn't agree more. That is the point.

I don't think anyone in this thread is really in the mood of enfuriating crazy fanatics to the point of having them killing innocent people.

[Flipside]

No, because the whole point is we are supposed to be better and more mature than these countries. Though we are doing a pretty **** job of proving that.

When your countrymen are dying in other countries at the hands of angry mobs due to the small actions of a few attention seekers that are well within their rights in the country they live in, who is to blame? I mean the videos/images are rude, but they dont call for genocide. They poke at religious beliefs. Unless the muslim world finds a way to get over this, this will happen time and time again. The western world will not enact laws to protect their precious beliefs, and there will always be a troll to poke fun. This can only end in an even more violent culture war, or the muslim world finding a way to suck it up.

The problem is the assumption that everyone must think like us. There are ways of introducing people to the concept of tolerance that don't involve showing nothing but intolerance. It's just a question of exercising our grey matter as hard as we seem determined to exercise free-speech.

[mjn.mixael]

I think it's more that some are arguing that just because you have Freedom of Speech to call someone a ***** just because you feel like it doesn't mean you should.

But as humanity (and this thread) has proven, people in general can't handle the maturity and responsibility that Freedom of Speech comes with.

[Legate Damar]

@Legate : I did answer the question. Read my post before responding next time please.

All you said was "the deaths were sad and wrong". If by "wrong" you mean the killers were wrong to commit them, then whose actions do you believe to be more "wrong": the killers, or the cartoonists?

[Flipside]

@mjn.mixael : Sadly true, seems that Freedom of Speech doesn't include Freedom to Take Responsibility, which should be equally important, but apparently isn't.

@Legate : Believe it or not, both sides can be wrong in an argument. The whole concept of 'us' and 'them' is precisely what caused this problem in the first place, no-one is gloryfying the rioters, but then, the cartoonists are equally stupid in their lack of consideration for other people and cultures.

[Mongoose]

I've yet to see anyone proposing that freedom of expression should be legally curbed.  Nor is anyone suggesting that the response to those cartoons and the movie is at all reasonable...far from it.  What I have seen is the suggestion that with the unalienable right of free speech comes the responsibility to use it...well, responsibly.  Remember the classic example: you can't yell "Fire!" in a crowded theater, cause a stampede, and then hide behind free speech as your excuse.  In the same way, drawing cartoons that you know have a decent chance of putting someone in mortal danger is pretty much just cowardice.

[jr2]

And, another thing: anyone who thinks that the cartoons were made to deliberately incite murderous fury, well, I think you need to step back and ask yourself how you know that to be true.  Yes, the authors knew that could be a side effect.  But seriously?  By your logic, anyone that trolls a depressed person on these forums is directly responsible for their death if they commit suicide, and indeed deliberately attempted to murder them.  Whoops, logic disconnect, check your assumptions.

[achtung]

No, because the whole point is we are supposed to be better and more mature than these countries. Though we are doing a pretty **** job of proving that.

When your countrymen are dying in other countries at the hands of angry mobs due to the small actions of a few attention seekers that are well within their rights in the country they live in, who is to blame? I mean the videos/images are rude, but they dont call for genocide. They poke at religious beliefs. Unless the muslim world finds a way to get over this, this will happen time and time again. The western world will not enact laws to protect their precious beliefs, and there will always be a troll to poke fun. This can only end in an even more violent culture war, or the muslim world finding a way to suck it up.

The problem is the assumption that everyone must think like us. There are ways of introducing people to the concept of tolerance that don't involve showing nothing but intolerance. It's just a question of exercising our grey matter as hard as we seem determined to exercise free-speech.

Finding a nice way to make the muslim world more tolerant would be great. Theres this issue though. How do you propose doing it without curtailing some of the most fundamental western values? If you want widespread hate for muslims in the west, go ahead and tell everyone they have to shut up and treat muslims like special children. Youll see massive calls for genocide the day you told everyone to shut up.

[Luis Dias]

Everyone's "Free to take Responsibility", so I really am at odds with you there.

What perhaps you are trying to say is that we should all be "Forced to take Responsibility", which directly translates to the negation of Free Speech itself. That you don't like the very idea of Free Speech is something that I strongly suspect.

I think it's more that some are arguing that just because you have Freedom of Speech to call someone a ***** just because you feel like it doesn't mean you should.

MJN, 100% agreed. I understand your point. However, when the **** hits the fan and one or ten people out of 50 million have a blank in their ****-hitting-the-fan-detector, to blame the western society and its freedom of speech is insane. The problem should be correctly located and it is not in our values nor in our people.

Suit up MJ, stop blaming the victim here.

[Flipside]

@jr2 : If someone said "I feel like killing myself" and someone else posted "Do it! Do it!", you'd think the person who replied was a heartless, inconsiderate wanker would you not? And if that person did then commit suicide then yes, I would say that response certainly attributed to the act. If memory serves me correctly, the American courts also felt the same way.

The fact is, everybody knew the impact these cartoons would have, riots were already going on because of the movie, whether justified or not, and fuel was deliberately added to the fire. Pleading ignorance to the fact that this would lead to more death is simply a lie.

@ Swantz, we don't need to curtail any values at all, but just because we can draw insulting pictures of a religious character doesn't mean that we must. It's a question as much of self-control as Freedom of Speech, without one, the other will just descend into pure anarchy.

[Legate Damar]

@Legate : Believe it or not, both sides can be wrong in an argument. The whole concept of 'us' and 'them' is precisely what caused this problem in the first place, no-one is gloryfying the rioters, but then, the cartoonists are equally stupid in their lack of consideration for other people and cultures.

So your position is that they are equally at fault?

[Flipside]

My position is that whilst the riots were silly and pointless, they were inflamed deliberately by external sources. You seem to be trying to make me say something so you can 'pounce' on it, and I don't like leading questions.

[Legate Damar]

You seem to be continually refusing to answer simple questions.

[Flipside]

Actually, I've answered the question over and over and over, maybe you should read the entire thread?