[Luis Dias]

This audience is in dire need to hear this speech of Christopher Hitchens about Free Speech.

It starts like this: "FIRE! FIRE! FIRE! FIRE! Now you've heard it"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3Hg-Y7MugU&feature=player_embedded#!

[StarSlayer]

You can't fix stupid though.  You're always going to have a bunch of nit whits goose stepping around screaming white power, you'll always have WBC swine showing up to the funerals of servicemen and women *****ing about gay marriage.  These twits making Islam cartoons and films are no different.  Acting like these people should know better is like telling a house on fire not to burn because its inconsiderate to the occupants.

I'm not really sure what the point of this thread is anymore.

[achtung]

Flipside, what you say is tru, but you are missing the point. Youre suggesting we should strive for the ideal situation. Thats admirable, but it wont happen. Unless something is made law, western trolls will continue to troll trolls in the muslim world. Muslims will get all mad, and they will react violently. There is no apparent good way to get everyone to stop poking fun at muslims without forcefully curtailing rights.The benefits of free speech come at the price of dealing with dicks. They will always exist, and the muslim world will have to find a way to get used to it, or smply shut themselves in.

In the end, I'm going to blame the group lashing out violently over a cartoon that insults a deity. They are wrong, they are ending lives in order to express distaste. There is no right there, unless you want to go far down the subjectivity road.

[jr2]

Well, see, here's the thing: most of us didn't draw insulting cartoons, but the riots happened anyway.  Why? Why were they so angry?  Well, because we allowed the cartoons to be draw.  Basically, with the riots, whether intentionally or not, the radicals are saying: we demand that you stop allowing insults to our religion.  In effect, they are demanding and end to the freedom of speech by commiting violent acts when we allow things like the cartoons.  Now, we could definitely, on our own, shut up the wankers: refuse to buy or read the publications that host them.  That would effectively take away the wankers' platform.  But in this day and age, they will always find some platform.


And as far as "I feel like killing myself" and "Do it! Do it!", you know it's never that clear-cut.  It's more like <insert depressing comments here> followed by "get the sand out of your vag and STFU", usually mixed with concern from the forum members that aren't walking dicks.

[Legate Damar]

If you claim to have already answered, then surely clarifying your answer in the form of a simple yes or no response to my question should not be difficult?

[Luis Dias]

Well, see, here's the thing: most of us didn't draw insulting cartoons, but the riots happened anyway.  Why? Why were they so angry?  Well, because we allowed the cartoons to be draw

Point.

[achtung]

jr2, hang out on 4chan/b/ for a little while. Youll see people telling others to kill themselves on cam with timestamp.

[Flipside]

That's the whole point, the people who didn't, and wouldn't draw cartoons, because it would be insulting, are being branded alongside those who do. In the case of the movie, I could deal with it, it was an individual who was simply trolling his ass off, but when more mainstream media gets involved, as it did in France it alters from being perceptible as the act of an individual and starts to look state-sponsored.

Remember in these countries very little happens without Government approval, and the lack of education means that people assume every other country works exactly the same way, so to the minds of these people, the cartoons weren't released by a French Magazine, they were released by France as an entire country. Everybody gets to pay the price for the trolling of the few. And the trolls actually seem proud of this fact.

[achtung]

That's the whole point, the people who didn't, and wouldn't draw cartoons, because it would be insulting, are being branded alongside those who do. In the case of the movie, I could deal with it, it was an individual who was simply trolling his ass off, but when more mainstream media gets involved, as it did in France it alters from being perceptible as the act of an individual and starts to look state-sponsored.

Remember in these countries very little happens without Government approval, and the lack of education means that people assume every other country works exactly the same way, so to the minds of these people, the cartoons weren't released by a French Magazine, they were released by France as an entire country. Everybody gets to pay the price for the trolling of the few. And the trolls actually seem proud of this fact.

The trolls are dicks, and the rioters are fools. Problem is, we can't fix either without screwing ourselves in the process. There is no win-win.

[Luis Dias]

Flipside, dicks exist. That point is moot. That's not the discussion.

[Flipside]

If you claim to have already answered, then surely clarifying your answer in the form of a simple yes or no response to my question should not be difficult?

If you want to get involved in the thread then read it, I'm not Google.

@Swantz, exactly, but pretending this is 'exercising freedom of speech' is simply something to hide behind, it's not 'Carrying the torch of Freedom' anywhere.

@Luis : It's the entire point, these people are trying to make out that they are 'doing good' with these cartoons, but pretty much everyone agrees they are dicks, so there's no point applauding their actions.

[Luis Dias]

I never applauded their actions. However, I do fear about this whole backslash against freedom of speech.

[jr2]

I'm sure.  However, my actual point is, we don't even ban-hammer insensitive pricks here, it's a free board within certain confines, and as long as you stay within the confines, you can say whatever you want.  I wouldn't change that.  Yes, those people are twats, however, it's either that or the worse option of confining people to accepted views as determined by the forum admins, in this case, or governments, in the Real World.

EDIT: Well, there's not much you can do about that... that's the price of living in a free country, in a world where some countries aren't free.  Problem is, since we are a bit sensitive to others and actually do care that lives are lost, we risk heading down the path of appeasement as the radicals are basically saying "you might say that everyone is free to do and say as they please in your country, however, we don't agree with this and will attempt to force you to change it" in effect, trying to get the free countries to become not free and muzzle their citizens.

We shouldn't approve of the dicks, but we shouldn't curtail their freedom, either.  Terrorists know that free people tend to become complacent and don't like dealing with the bloody mess that they are willing to unleash.  This is how they hope to win, by getting the free world to do the dirty work that they do not have the power to do themselves, namely, silencing those who oppose them. 

If they succeeded in getting us to censor offensive images / articles, next would come images / articles that do not outright approve of their values.

[Scotty]

If you claim to have already answered, then surely clarifying your answer in the form of a simple yes or no response to my question should not be difficult?

This must be why the Cardassians can't accomplish anything really significant.  They can't comprehend that not every question has a yes or no response.

[Flipside]

I know you're not applauding them Luis, but the OP was congratulating France for releasing the cartoons

If there were a backlash against Freedom and Speech, then I would defend Freedom of Speech, simple as that, but my point is that these cartoons are nothing to be proud of, have caused death in the name of 'lulz' and we should be ashamed that some peoples definition of Freedom of Speech is to try and watch the world burn.

[Luis Dias]

Well then we agree on that proposition.

Although if you want some fire for this discussion I could add that my evil side in me tells me that shaking things up could bring up some healthy discussion about the values of western civilization and how important they are.

A lesser evil part of me also tells me that despite your claims that freedom of speech was never in doubt, one had to turn to watch ms Le Pen to watch somebody state the obvious fact that we should defend the rights of our people to say the dumbest **** up things, and not exactly gang up on them.

While I don't lilke the idea of "causing" emotional armaggedon to the point of murder (i.e. I'm not a dick), I also do not like a world where crazy people can harrass me and others, taking whole populations as hostages to curtail one of my basic and most important rights (there are so few of them left). I don't like that ****. Not. One. Bit.

[Flipside]

I'm also sure that Muslims don't want to live in a world where crazy people attack the very core of their belief system.

For me, the solution isn't insults, it's education, on both sides. People need to understand the importance of Mohammed in the Islamic belief system and why Muslims are so offended by these images, and the Middle East needs to understand that the views of an individual are exactly that.

The long and the short of it is that both sides need to grow the **** up.

[Luis Dias]

I do not think that our side needs "growing up" at all, that's probably where we diverge.

The reason why is that there will always be dicks. And there will always be people who are unsure we have our rights protected, and try to make a stand, no matter how silly it might be.

The system should be sufficiently tolerant of these outliers. The muslims apparently cannot accept a single outlier. They just go bananas. Something must give, and it isn't us, Flipside. Here we disagree plenty.

[Mongoose]

What perhaps you are trying to say is that we should all be "Forced to take Responsibility", which directly translates to the negation of Free Speech itself. That you don't like the very idea of Free Speech is something that I strongly suspect.

ahahahahahano

[Luis Dias]

Well then, Mongoose, your "free to take responsibility" is completely meaningless drivel. We are already free to do that.