[Flipside]

Right, let's see if we can continue this without spouting complete, deliberately misinterpreted garbage shall we? Trying to manipulate someone's words into something they are not is the lowest form of debate and will not be tolerated.

I have repeatedly stated that the deaths were wrong, sad and unforgivable, if you haven't read the thread throughout then I'd strongly advise you to do so. But saying that in any way my comments are coming down on the side of the rioters is complete garbage, I'm not on anyone's side, it's just a tragic outcome. I don't agree with the cartoons, but one more rise of the 'With us or against us' attitude and the thread will be locked permanently.

[Luis Dias]

Well to me that particular equivocation ended when you clarified that you were only railing against the cheering of the original poster.

[Flipside]

And could you please quote exactly where I said I was only railing against the original poster. I certainly stated that the original post cheered on those who released the cartoon, and I certainly stated that my responses were centered around that position because, you know, that's what the thread was about, but hey, I'd love to see where I said I was only dealing with that.

Please quote.

[karajorma]

I am vehemently opposed to restraining Free Speech if its simply to appease a bunch of neobarb zealots.   

But who has said that we should do this?

Luis Dias has constructed a massive strawman in this discussion based on the idea that someone has said this. No one has.


The closest they've said is that if someone decides to troll the Muslims we should all rise up and troll them instead.


Oh and I'm sticking the next person who claims that anyone in this discussion supports the rioters in the Political Prisoners group as they have no place on this board.

[Flipside]

Come on Luis, I'm waiting for you to quote this:

I know you're not applauding them Luis, but the OP was congratulating France for releasing the cartoons

If there were a backlash against Freedom and Speech, then I would defend Freedom of Speech, simple as that, but my point is that these cartoons are nothing to be proud of, have caused death in the name of 'lulz' and we should be ashamed that some peoples definition of Freedom of Speech is to try and watch the world burn.

And how you define that as only railing against the OP. Certainly the point I made was with reference to the OP, but I sense more word twisting.

[Luis Dias]

See how easy it is to misinterpret anyone else, Flipside? Here I was, merely informing you and everyone else that I understood your point (to which I agreed with previously) when you presented that reply to me, and now you understood precisely the opposite.

edit:

I am vehemently opposed to restraining Free Speech if its simply to appease a bunch of neobarb zealots.   

But who has said that we should do this?

Luis Dias has constructed a massive strawman in this discussion based on the idea that someone has said this. No one has.

I find it a lot worse to place a quote without any name on it, and then reference my name, when clearly that quote isn't mine at all.

The closest they've said is that if someone decides to troll the Muslims we should all rise up and troll them instead.

And to that I said much more meaningful things than the idiocy you just quoted up there.

[Flipside]

Heh, bad night and 1am don't mix well, and after the what happened earlier, I'm kinda on the defensive.

Yup, it is easy to misinterpret people, and my apologies for that, but theres' a difference between accidental error, as happened here, and the kind of deliberate misinterpretation that happened earlier.

In many ways actually, it's a good example on a smaller scale of the entire problem. That communication, particularly after the recipient has been insulted, is not an easy thing to do

My interpretation of equivocation was inaccurate, I felt you wee saying that I was no longer treating people equally, the word has so many meanings...

[Dragon]

I'd be glad if we stuck to the topic, and preferably split the ad hominem/misquoting discussion out, it starts to clutter the thread.

Problem is, that's a very Western take on the issue. In most of these countries Islam isn't just a religion, it's an entire way of life, it defines who these people are.

You may not agree with that, I know I don't, but to Muslims, their faith is fundamental to defining them, asking a Muslim to give up Islam would be like asking him or her to cut off a limb, it would be simply unthinkable to them.

This is actually the case with most religions. Even Christianity. Would you like xmas, thanksgiving, sundays, easter and the like taken away from you? The only reason we see Muslims as extreme is that due to commercialization and general cheapening of Christian traditions, we stopped connecting them with religion. Muslims are "real" believers in their faith, who don't celebrate their holidays just because everybody does. It means something for them. Let's face it, how many of you though about Christ's teachings and not about the presents last xmas? I have exactly one friend who is a "real" Christian, who hadn't forgotten the true meaning of her faith. Even though I'm an atheist, I respect such people for sticking to their beliefs and actually being who they say they are. Note, she's not a fanatic or anything, and respects other religions. For such people, faith is just as unchangeable as skin color, as it's integrated into who they are.

Now, in this incident, both sides are guilty, of overreaction and of lack of understanding of the other side. While I'm not defending the killing of an US ambassador (Bible, Koran, Panca-Sila and many other holy texts rather unambiguously agree that killing is bad), I'd say that the French, coming from a country which claims to be "more civilized" should've known better.  Middle-eastern people aren't exactly known for taking jabs at their religion well, and it's a well known fact. If the relationship between the east and the west is supposed to improve, the west should be the first to reach out it's hand, and this should be an unambiguous gesture.

[Flipside]

Good point there Dragon, most religions perform a whole framework of social and community functions, I suppose the real difference is that, in much of the US for example, if a child decides later on in life "I don't want to be a Christian any more" they have the Freedom to do so. There is no such choice in these countries, the child of a Muslim is a practicing Muslim for his or her entire life on pain of death. So in that respect, there is no choice.

[Nemesis6]

On a slight tangent -- At least now Denmark gets a break. No longer will we have to travel the world with Finnish flags on our backpacks!

[StarSlayer]

I am vehemently opposed to restraining Free Speech if its simply to appease a bunch of neobarb zealots.   

But who has said that we should do this?

Heh, if you look at the entirety of my post I was asking what the argument was about because the discussion had become so muddled it was difficult to tease out what exactly everyone was arguing about, or what they thought they where arguing about.  Considering this thread is just as convoluted as it was when I originally asked, I still think folks need to take a step back and clearly outline their points since its pretty clear that everybody doesn't seem to know what the main point of this argument is anymore.

[Flipside]

Well, my point is that the cartoons were unproductive, dangerous and stupid. Should they be banned? No. Should people have known better? Yes. Do these people deserve applause for releasing these cartoons? Most certainly not. Will anything even remotely productive come from these cartoons? No.

To be honest, I think most people are arguing the same point from different angles at this stage, it's just the stupid questions like "Do you think the rioters killing people is wrong?" that really set it off course. Of course the rioters killing people was wrong, I really, really shouldn't have to answer that question because the answer is incredibly obvious. Which is why I refused to. It's kind of depressing that I actually ended up having to do so, and even more depressing that some people tried to twist my refusal to answer a question that has such an obvious answer into me in some way supporting them.

Edit : The worst part is that many of the people on this thread have known me for years, and know my views are usually of the 'try to find a way to get along' type. To imply that I somehow condone and support the idea of people rioting and killing is an insult to everything I represent and believe in. So, if anything, accusing me of supporting the murder of innocent people is my own 'Mohammed Cartoon', it's rude, it's inaccurate and it was designed purely for the purpose of trolling. So I"ll once again apologise to Luis, because he got the brunt of me feeling incredibly violated and insulted by another persons actions.

[An4ximandros]

We don't want to have our persona hurt, we want to get along with out group but we also want to be right without having a discussion about it, we will resort to killing people and call it humane.

The more I read on this thread, the more and more it feels those words come true, the internet has ruined you people, I can't believe the lengths you go to be right about your opinions just to not be "wrong" or why someone else's opinion differs from yours.

I won't even bother trying to post my points on this thread, after reading it, I see they will be twisted in some way to support it's antithesis.

[karajorma]

I am vehemently opposed to restraining Free Speech if its simply to appease a bunch of neobarb zealots.   

But who has said that we should do this?

Luis Dias has constructed a massive strawman in this discussion based on the idea that someone has said this. No one has.

I find it a lot worse to place a quote without any name on it, and then reference my name, when clearly that quote isn't mine at all.

Seriously? That's the best you can do to answer me? Absolutely pathetic.

To be honest, I think most people are arguing the same point from different angles at this stage, it's just the stupid questions like "Do you think the rioters killing people is wrong?" that really set it off course. Of course the rioters killing people was wrong, I really, really shouldn't have to answer that question because the answer is incredibly obvious. Which is why I refused to. It's kind of depressing that I actually ended up having to do so, and even more depressing that some people tried to twist my refusal to answer a question that has such an obvious answer into me in some way supporting them.

That's why I'm banning people next time I see that happening. If you have to ask a question like that, you don't belong on a discussion forum. It's a form of conversational terrorism.

[Flipside]

We don't want to have our persona hurt, we want to get along with out group but we also want to be right without having a discussion about it, we will resort to killing people and call it humane.

The more I read on this thread, the more and more it feels those words come true, the internet has ruined you people, I can't believe the lengths you go to be right about your opinions just to not be "wrong" or why someone else's opinion differs from yours.

I won't even bother trying to post my points on this thread, after reading it, I see they will be twisted in some way to support it's antithesis.

Seriously though, in situations like this people always get belligerent, it's not just the Internet that is responsible for that. But yes, there's been some pretty unpleasant stuff in this thread. This board had a problem for quite a while with the attitude of 'If you don't agree with me you are a fascist/terrorist/idiot etc', and I really hope this doesn't signify the rise of that kind of mentality again.

[General Battuta]

We don't want to have our persona hurt, we want to get along with out group but we also want to be right without having a discussion about it, we will resort to killing people and call it humane.

The more I read on this thread, the more and more it feels those words come true, the internet has ruined you people, I can't believe the lengths you go to be right about your opinions just to not be "wrong" or why someone else's opinion differs from yours.

I won't even bother trying to post my points on this thread, after reading it, I see they will be twisted in some way to support it's antithesis.

The truest thing ever written about GenDisc. This was the first forum I was really active in and I thought this kind of virulence was the norm - for years and years I assumed this was just how internet debate worked.

Fortunately it turns out there are much more civilized places to debate current events, places where you can expect real content and bilateral, nuanced discussion. HLP is a brilliant modding community, but it has a weird little tumor of structuralized grudges and endless posturing strapped to its flank.

e: and i would never except myself from responsibility, mind!

[Flipside]

Yup, GD has been a thorn in HLP's side to a greater or lesser extent for years, there's even been discussion of removing it entirely, and I'm still in two minds about that idea, I still remember the reaction when we dared to move it to the bottom section of the Forum lists, and some of the hate that was directed our way just for doing that.

It's depressing really, to see so many intelligent, creative people reduced to that kind of behaviour.

[stinkyFeet]

You know, I stayed away from this one just so nobody would complain about me being that way.

Also, I've seen it 100x worse on other forums.

[Aardwolf]

Wow those 4 pages just appeared out of nowhere.

In reply to something jr2 said two pages ago:

No, I don't think they are trying to force us to stop drawing insulting pictures of them. I think they are just mad and out for blood. There's a difference between wanting to take away our freedoms, and wanting us dead (although the latter accomplishes the former).




Edit: Oops, I must have just skipped to the bottom of the last page. Apparently this was already discussed.



@karajorma: I don't like the sound of that, because it sounds like something I do from time to time

[Mongoose]

Fortunately it turns out there are much more civilized places to debate current events, places where you can expect real content and bilateral, nuanced discussion. HLP is a brilliant modding community, but it has a weird little tumor of structuralized grudges and endless posturing strapped to its flank.

As true as that is, the sad thing is that I look at this place as a comparative escape from that sort of nonsense...and it really seems to be such when it's held up to another forum I frequent.

Amusingly enough, I think I just used half of those "conversational terrorism" elements in a single thread on said forum.