[redsniper]

It's not even spring yet...

[mjn.mixael]

Is this the part where I say something and then you respond, not actually stopping?

[The E]

Enough.

[Spoon]

I was half way done typing this when E closed the thread.

Then ask! That's what I meant when I said I got your point but I didn't think you were getting mine.

1) For someone proficient in both, scripting is much better than SEXPs for features that are meant to appear in multiple missions. I covered the main reasons (reusable easily, easier bug fixing etc).

Sure.

2) For someone who isn't proficient there's nothing wrong with using SEXPs but a scripted solution would still be better. That doesn't mean you should learn to script in order to implement one.

Uh huh.

But if you can get hold of a scripted solution and can get someone to implement it for you, you should use it.

That's what I've doing a few times already (Well, through Axem since he was coolcat enough to contact m!m about it). Having a community with specialized skills is neato.
I do have my concerns with this though. What if the scripter for whatever reason becomes unavailable for a long period of time? etc.

3) Everyone should learn enough about scripting to be able to decide when is a good idea to use them. This doesn't necessarily mean learning how to actually script. Just when to actually say "You know what, I should ask someone for a script for this before I try to SEXP it myself"

How would you suggest someone goes about learning this? This sounds more like intuition that comes with FREDing experience rather than understanding how scripting works.

[karajorma]

I'll leave this one open since I'm not gonna argue (promise).

That's what I've doing a few times already (Well, through Axem since he was coolcat enough to contact m!m about it). Having a community with specialized skills is neato.
I do have my concerns with this though. What if the scripter for whatever reason becomes unavailable for a long period of time? etc.

Worst case scenario is that you end up having to implement it in FRED. Which is what you were going to do anyway. More likely you can find someone else to help you. Especially if it's just a matter of fixing an existing script.

How would you suggest someone goes about learning this? This sounds more like intuition that comes with FREDing experience rather than understanding how scripting works.

Keep an ear to the ground for new scripting features same as you do for new FREDding ones. At least look in the scripting forum once in a while (I know that I've ignored it until now, I doubt I'm the only one). I try to keep an ear open about what new modding features exist, even though I'm not a modeller or tabler and will never personally use them. I'm just saying that scripting should be getting about the same level of respect even from people don't script.

[Admiral MS]

3) Everyone should learn enough about scripting to be able to decide when is a good idea to use them. This doesn't necessarily mean learning how to actually script. Just when to actually say "You know what, I should ask someone for a script for this before I try to SEXP it myself"

How would you suggest someone goes about learning this? This sounds more like intuition that comes with FREDing experience rather than understanding how scripting works.

Keep an ear to the ground for new scripting features same as you do for new FREDding ones. At least look in the scripting forum once in a while (I know that I've ignored it until now, I doubt I'm the only one).

This definitely! Scripting forum isn't that busy so it won't hurt to look into it sometimes. Pretty much every big standalone script has its own thread where you can give feedback or ask questions about it.

My next suggestion would be to take a look into scripting.html. As it has been said several times you don't have to understand how it is working but what is possible. Skim through it and look for interesting sections and functions. Most of them have an explanation that someone who is good at freding (and partially modding in general) will understand. Maybe you find something interesting and remember it later when working on a mission. Keep in mind that you can use every sexp in scripting.

[Nuke]

i figure if i convince at least a few modders google a lua tutorial or peruse the scripting board, then its all worth it. i really dont care that the very act of suggesting that modders learn a new skill is sometimes met with great resentment from certain individuals. but if you want to learn the lua language, there are tutorials all over the net. also if you ever want to have a career in game design, lua knowhow will certainly look good on your resume (a lot of games use lua these days).

as for how lua pertains to freespace scripting, scripting.html is pretty much api documentation. it also helps to have a good understanding about how the non-scripting parts of the scripting tables are set up for which the wiki entry on the scripting.tbl/*-sct.tbm is useful (skip to the part on conditional hooks, and id only use global hooks when doing tcs where the possibility of script stacking is removed or reduced). you can always ask on the scripting forum for help if you dont understand how something works.

[General Battuta]

The problem is you suggest this as if people aren't already doing it. Since you don't play anything you have no idea how much scripting is already being used.

[Nuke]

its probibly just my perception based on my stuff that gets used. which sad to say most of it doesn't. also big mod teams usually keep their secrets secret so they aren't plastering the scripting board with showcases of their accomplishments. and i havent been playing mods lately, but more out of waiting for 3.7 so i can haz all teh shinys currently in development. there has been an increase in activity on the scripting board the last couple of years and this is probibly due to mod uptake of scripting. its nice to see scripting finally starting to receive the appreciation it deserves. but perceptions aside im still gonna promote the use of scripting. if that makes me a dick, then oh well.

[General Battuta]

Big mod teams don't keep their secrets secret any more. BP has been open-sourcing pretty much everything. Droid does the same.

[MatthTheGeek]

Stuff like the screencam script originally comes from BtA. We're big kids too ! :<

[General Battuta]

Yeah - totally true. Inferno is also pretty generous as well (and always has been.)

[Spoon]

Anyway in closing:
Karajorma and I were both to blame to some degree. I feel Karajorma really didn't convey his message well and I also think that he misinterpreted what nuke was saying (I am still certain that he wants pretty much every modder to invest in learning scripting. And not just learn when to learn when a script might be useful to acomplish something wihtout sexps.). What also doesn't help is when Kara strides in on his high horse and starts sounding really condescending and by times just plain arrogant. Which made me feel like responding in kind.
Where I am to blame is that I apparantly need to learn how exactly Karajorma's posts need to be read. I apparantly have a tendency of drawing conclusions or assumptions out of his posts that he himself did not intended to say at all. I guess his posts are a lot more literal then what I seem to be reading in them. Which leads me to believe things about his position that probably just aren't there. So I'm at fault for not double reading his posts carefully before hitting the reply button.
For the most part we actually seem to be agreeing with each other (I still stand by my point that you don't need a script for everything and that copy pasting a sexp block is a completely viable and proper method). So it was an argument about practically nothing I guess.

its probibly just my perception based on my stuff that gets used. which sad to say most of it doesn't. also big mod teams usually keep their secrets secret so they aren't plastering the scripting board with showcases of their accomplishments. and i havent been playing mods lately, but more out of waiting for 3.7 so i can haz all teh shinys currently in development. there has been an increase in activity on the scripting board the last couple of years and this is probibly due to mod uptake of scripting. its nice to see scripting finally starting to receive the appreciation it deserves. but perceptions aside im still gonna promote the use of scripting. if that makes me a dick, then oh well.

Nuke, you are so out of touch with modern times. Why should we take anything you say seriously anymore?
You have no idea how many scripts are being used in modern mods, maybe you should try playing some?, yet here you are making dumb claims that 'most of the scripts don't get used' and you are intentionally keeping yourself in the dark for years to come if you are going to wait for 3.7 (just look how incredibly long the .14 RC cycle is...)
As for keeping secrets: Remember the flaming debris script?

[karajorma]

I'll agree that I should have made it a hell of a lot clearer that I was understanding your point (and even partly agreed with it) when I only disagreed with parts of it. I'll try to be more clear in the future but that tends to add another 200 words whenever I do it.

For the most part we actually seem to be agreeing with each other (I still stand by my point that you don't need a script for everything and that copy pasting a sexp block is a completely viable and proper method). So it was an argument about practically nothing I guess.

If it's in just one mission, I wouldn't suggest using scripting unless you know how to do it yourself (and maybe not even then!). When it's in a couple of missions, it's objectively better to use a script but that doesn't mean it's worth the hassle if you can't do it. When it's in a whole bunch, a script would definitely have been better so it's something you probably should have tried before deciding to do it via SEXPs.

[Nuke]

you go ahead and think that. just because i dont dedicate every waking hour to modding and/or playing freespace doesn't mean im that far behind. i like to do other things you know, mod other games, work on my game engine(s), or my multitude of other hobbies. doesn't mean i wont occasionally dedicate a week to hammering out nukemod bugs or or add new features to my scripts. so what if im not on the bleeding edge anymore? whats it to you?

on the other hand one does not simply forget how to code and im pretty handy with lua inside or outside of freespace (i use lua all the time, my prototype game engine is entirely lua, and i use lua scripts to communicate with my hardware projects over serial/usb/ip/whatever). and face it thanks to the slow uptake of scripting and lack of scripting talent in the community (im not saying it doesn't exist, just that it doesn't exist in great enough proportion to other skillets, you might have one scripter for every 10 fredders for example). the api doesnt change as rapidly as other parts of the code. so i am more than qualified to offer advice on scripting.

[Luis Dias]

So basically scripting is ****ing awesome and everyone would be better off learning it, but if they don't learn it they still get to be respected human beings and so on?

That's kind of the gist I want to take from this thread...

[Phantom Hoover]

jesus christ spoon, if you're going to apologise in such a backhanded way you're better off just not apologising at all

[General Battuta]

It's the thread that keeps on giving!

Yo Nuke if you're keeping up with events maybe you noticed a whole bunch of scripting getting used around the 3.6.12 release? This was not just an example of scripts cutting across a lot of different design sectors - flaming debris and flashy warhead detonations on the graphical side, capship command scripts on the gameplay side, title screen scripts on the presentation/UI side - but many of these scripts were developed by mod teams and then donated to the MediaVPs for immediate public use.

I just feel like a lot of your complaints are based on not following what's actually going on with the community and its products.

[Spoon]

you go ahead and think that.

I certainly will, since you never give me any reason to think otherwise.

just because i dont dedicate every waking hour to modding and/or playing freespace doesn't mean im that far behind.

All the signs seem to point the other way.

so what if im not on the bleeding edge anymore? whats it to you?

Its annoying when you are out of touch yet keep posting about things you are behind on. Especially when you made it clear that you have no intentions on actually getting up to date with what the modding community is actually doing and using scripts for.

so i am more than qualified to offer advice on scripting.

Not if you aren't actually going to contribute anything of value
Saying "I did this years ago with scripting" doesn't count.


@Phantomhoover
You are dumb. I am not giving a 'backhanded' apology for anything. I just cleared matters up. Learn to read and stop trolling kthx.

[General Battuta]

Admiral MS' checkpoint script was designed for BtA based on fred-sized checkpoints and is now being used by multiple teams!

The turret hotkey script got requested for BP but should see broad use!