[SaltyWaffles]

Just a curiosity: are the tabled (and demonstrated, I suppose) ranges of the various beam cannons (4 km for green beams except LRBGreen, between 6375-9750 for blue beams) are consistently accurate, and if so, why would a Karuna/Sanctus even attempt a head-on charge? The Yangtze case is perfectly understandable (not like they had any other options aside from trying to keep limping away, and they wanted to die in their feet, so to speak), but ones like the Nelson (and company) seem a bit odd.

I know the difficulties the Nelson and her cruiser screen were facing didn't leave a whole lot in the way of options, and they were just trying to buy as much time as possible for the evacuation of Artemis Station. But every UEF captain has to know (via Bei and 14th BG defectors) how much those beams out-range even their gauss cannons, and their general damage output. In other words, even if you're trying to buy for time with a suicide maneuver, why do it in the manner that is easiest and quickest for the enemy to dispatch you? The Nelson would lose almost half its health from the first pulse of the HBlue alone, and it would have to whither a BBlue and two MBlue's shortly after (by then, only his gauss cannons would be in range). The Chimera and Bellerophon corvettes flying alongside the Atreus would gut two Sanctus cruisers straight off, and you'd still have to get past the Hyperion cruisers and Diomedes corvette. In other words, they couldn't even hope to slow the Tev battlegroup down. They'd just put themselves out of the picture as quickly and easily as possible. Attacking from the direction where the Tevs are strongest and they aren't required to divert from heading right for Artemis at all is just...inefficient, even for a suicide mission.

And unless the Nelson could cover the distance from 9750m to 7200m in under 30 seconds, she wouldn't even be able to get a single gauss cannon shot off before getting gutted (or crippled) by the Atreus' HBlue alone.

If they had tried moving 'down' and attacking from below at a somewhat later time, would things have gone any better?

----

As for the actual evacuation of Artemis Station--given the impossibility of holding the line for another twenty minutes and the very low chances of any significant reinforcements arriving, what exactly is the importance of 50 or 100 more people evacuating from the station before the Tevs took it over? Did they fear that Tev occupation would be a cruel fate, or were they trying to avoid the decision to enact scorched-earth protocol and remote-detonate Artemis Station before it fell into the hands of the Tevs (and before it finished evacuating)? Did the captain of the Nelson think it possible that major reinforcements would arrive in time (or at all)?

(Heh, maybe the Ranvir would show up and broadcast 'Eye of the Tiger' as its mass driver and gauss cannons roared with awesomeness.)

[General Battuta]

In the early days of WiH dev there was nothing that could stop a sufficiently massed Karuna charge. Every ship in the GTVA arsenal would get its beams disarmed by gauss and torpedo fire.

What I'm saying is maybe you should revisit some fundamental assumptions!

The Nelson would lose almost half its health from the first pulse of the HBlue alone, and it would have to whither a BBlue and two MBlue's shortly after (by then, only his gauss cannons would be in range)

I wonder how many times we've told you this isn't true.

[Scotty]

The instructor can teach, but for learning to happen the student must be open to it.

[SaltyWaffles]

In the early days of WiH dev there was nothing that could stop a sufficiently massed Karuna charge. Every ship in the GTVA arsenal would get its beams disarmed by gauss and torpedo fire.

What I'm saying is maybe you should revisit some fundamental assumptions!

The Nelson would lose almost half its health from the first pulse of the HBlue alone, and it would have to whither a BBlue and two MBlue's shortly after (by then, only his gauss cannons would be in range)

I wonder how many times we've told you this isn't true.

...then what happened in Aristeia, exactly? Why did the Indus and Yangtze only open fire after Serkr had fired its beam cannons (and missed via jamming)? They were worried the Oculus wouldn't show up in time (it nearly didn't), and every main beam cannon they knocked out might have made the difference.

In Delenda Est, the Yangtze didn't even get a shot off before the Imperieuse's BBlue trio obliterated it, and IIRC the Hydra didn't fire that time (when it had every other time, along with the Imperieuse), perhaps implying that it wasn't in range with its three MBlue's.

And I don't mean--for Delenda Est--that the mass head-on charge the Katana/Altan Orde/Sanctus's did was a case of this; when you've got four ships, if you lose one to the opening salvo but the other three have 30 seconds to try and take out enough beam cannons with their gauss cannons and mass drivers, there's a very reasonable justification; it's when the enemy has so much firepower that you wouldn't succeed in disarming them (let alone slowing them down) before all getting blown up that it seems odd. (*And yes, I know; the Nelson had three Sanctus cruisers with it; however, Sanctus cruisers just don't have enough range or firepower to do the job before getting gutted by the even  (much) greater amount of firepower the Tevs had there. Two Karunas backed up by two Sanctus cruisers against less firepower and far fewer beam cannons is a different dynamic).

I'm not really talking about table entries, just in-story situations.

And a ship named "Nelson" deserves a more epic death! ;P

In the early days of WiH dev there was nothing that could stop a sufficiently massed Karuna charge. Every ship in the GTVA arsenal would get its beams disarmed by gauss and torpedo fire.

What I'm saying is maybe you should revisit some fundamental assumptions!

What exactly is a 'sufficiently massed Karuna charge'?  Is it something like four Karunas against two Chimeras/Titans/whatever, or could it be an equal-odds kind of thing (two on two)? Was it because the Karunas out-ranged their opponents, or simply that the Karunas would survive long enough to get in range and destroy those beam emitters fairly quickly?

I guess what I'm wondering is what those fundamental assumptions are. I don't need to mention tables at all; in-story events and feats provide the examples.

[MatthTheGeek]

Why did the Indus and Yangtze only open fire after Serkr had fired its beam cannons (and missed via jamming)?

... they did. Again, you are making faulty assumptions based on erroneous data.

In Delenda Est, the Yangtze didn't even get a shot off before the Imperieuse's BBlue trio obliterated it

I need to doublecheck, but I'm 90% sure they do.

and IIRC the Hydra didn't fire that time (when it had every other time, along with the Imperieuse), perhaps implying that it wasn't in range with its three MBlue's.

Most likely needed some time to charge the beams, and the Wargods probably attempted to jam GTVA beams, and I'd expect a corvette to be a tad easier to jam than a Titan, delaying for a few secs the inevitable.

Also, from a storytelling point of view, the psychological effect of seeing your comrades killed one by one is muuuuuch more important than all of them dying at the same time. Helplessness feeling and all.

[SaltyWaffles]

Why did the Indus and Yangtze only open fire after Serkr had fired its beam cannons (and missed via jamming)?

... they did. Again, you are making faulty assumptions based on erroneous data.

Woah, they do? That's...huh. I really don't ever recall seeing that (I do recall a bit of dialogue right after the missed beam salvo about the Yangtze and Indus now going for pounding the crap out of the Serkr corvettes, but not beforehand...). I'm going to go check on that one.

EDIT: Okay, you're essentially correct. They do start opening fire a couple seconds before Serkr does. Haven't double-checked Delenda Est, yet.

I need to doublecheck, but I'm 90% sure they do.

Also going to check this. I don't ever recall seeing the Yangtze firing a shot before the beams hit.

Also, from a storytelling point of view, the psychological effect of seeing your comrades killed one by one is muuuuuch more important than all of them dying at the same time. Helplessness feeling and all.

Very true. Though why it never fired at all in this case is worth mentioning. Given how beat up the Yangtze was (and the electronic warfare capabilities of the Imperieuse, Hydra, and Carthage present), I'd be a bit surprised if the Yangtze managed to successfully jam the Hydra's beams at that point.

[MatthTheGeek]

Given how beat up the Yangtze was (and the electronic warfare capabilities of the Imperieuse, Hydra, and Carthage present), I'd be a bit surprised if the Yangtze managed to successfully jam the Hydra's beams at that point.

Remember what we call jamming is actually several levels of electronic warfare, including disrupting targeting, disrupting the magnetic bottle of the beam and plasma cohesion. Taking into account that fact that beams need to charge up in the first place, you'd just need to delay the beams for a few seconds to achieve what we saw in Delenda Est.

[General Battuta]

It's almost like the opening of Blue Planet 2 War in Heaven, a desperate charge against a superior foe in order to buy time for a noble cause (which we learn immediately in the next mission failed catastrophically, with the Nelson gutted like a roast before it even got into effective range) is some kind of narrative encapsulation of a story in which human valor is no match for coldly calculated tactical and technological superiority, a story in which the merciless forces of war devour both a group of friends and an entire society.

Captain Mence charged the Atreus because he thought he could make a difference. He was wrong. Maybe there's some kind of thematic content there!

Wait, hang on, I can't find any of that in the tables. Can't be right

[General Battuta]

In most war stories characters who launch a valorous charge get to die meaningfully (Boromir, etc). They get a kind of plot momentum. But physics and tactics run war, not narrative.

[Aesaar]

In Delenda Est, the Yangtze didn't even get a shot off before the Imperieuse's BBlue trio obliterated it.

Have you considered that this might be because the BBlue outranges Gauss Cannon#Karuna by 1050m?

  and IIRC the Hydra didn't fire that time (when it had every other time, along with the Imperieuse), perhaps implying that it wasn't in range with its three MBlue's.

The Hydra doesn't shoot at the Altan Orde either.

[niffiwan]

It's almost like the opening of Blue Planet 2 War in Heaven, a desperate charge against a superior foe in order to buy time for a noble cause (which we learn immediately in the next mission failed catastrophically, with the Nelson gutted like a roast before it even got into effective range) is some kind of narrative encapsulation of a story in which human valor is no match for coldly calculated tactical and technological superiority, a story in which the merciless forces of war devour both a group of friends and an entire society.

That's World War One right there, and I had thought that WiH had more parallels with WW2... damn you guys write an awesome story!

[SaltyWaffles]

Captain Mence charged the Atreus because he thought he could make a difference. He was wrong. Maybe there's some kind of thematic content there!

That's my question, though: shouldn't he have known that well beforehand? Wouldn't every ship captain in the UEF been briefed on the basic capabilities of their opposition's ships, given how they had high-level officers defect over a year beforehand (in some cases with perfect examples of the ships they'd be facing, too)? What made him think he could make a difference with that course of action, if he knew more than enough to know it would be completely pointless (even detrimental to his own cause/goals)? Did he not know that a Raynor's spinal beam would seriously damage his ship before he could even get a shot off at all? Or that he'd be walking right into so many blue beams at once that he wouldn't even slow Steele down one second? If his goal was to make a suicidal stand to buy as much time as possible, why would he choose the quickest and simplest (for the enemy) way of going about it? So--did he simply not know these things (which brings up the question of why), or was he simply in despair and trying to go out in the sentimental way he wanted (regardless of the slight detriment it would have to his own stated objectives)?

And yes, I got the thematic part. Immediately. I also know of the distinction (and sometimes lack thereof) between bravery and stupidity--one of the major thematic statements of that cutscene, to me, is the UEF being out of touch with reality (as far as war/military goes, perhaps) in that, no, being heroic and selfless counts for nothing unless it can actually make a difference--and if it obviously can't in a given situation, you shouldn't throw a bunch of ships and lives away as nothing more than a gesture if they could continue fighting in the war instead. Overly idealistic adherence to honor meeting pragmatic cunning, with the result being a foregone conclusion (and all the more thematic for it, I suppose).

In Delenda Est, the Yangtze didn't even get a shot off before the Imperieuse's BBlue trio obliterated it.

Have you considered that this might be because the BBlue outranges Gauss Cannon#Karuna by 1050m?

...that's my point. The Yangtze didn't get a shot off because the BBlue is--in story--shown to outrange the Gauss Cannon#Karuna by a significant margin.

[Aesaar]

That's my question, though: shouldn't he have known that well beforehand? Wouldn't every ship captain in the UEF been briefed on the basic capabilities of their opposition's ships, given how they had high-level officers defect over a year beforehand (in some cases with perfect examples of the ships they'd be facing, too)? What made him think he could make a difference with that course of action, if he knew more than enough to know it would be completely pointless (even detrimental to his own cause/goals)? Did he not know that a Raynor's spinal beam would seriously damage his ship before he could even get a shot off at all? Or that he'd be walking right into so many blue beams at once that he wouldn't even slow Steele down one second? If his goal was to make a suicidal stand to buy as much time as possible, why would he choose the quickest and simplest (for the enemy) way of going about it? So--did he simply not know these things (which brings up the question of why), or was he simply in despair and trying to go out in the sentimental way he wanted (regardless of the slight detriment it would have to his own stated objectives)?

And yes, I got the thematic part. Immediately. I also know of the distinction (and sometimes lack thereof) between bravery and stupidity--one of the major thematic statements of that cutscene, to me, is the UEF being out of touch with reality (as far as war/military goes, perhaps) in that, no, being heroic and selfless counts for nothing unless it can actually make a difference--and if it obviously can't in a given situation, you shouldn't throw a bunch of ships and lives away as nothing more than a gesture if they could continue fighting in the war instead. Overly idealistic adherence to honor meeting pragmatic cunning, with the result being a foregone conclusion (and all the more thematic for it, I suppose).

Mence knew perfectly well his suicide ram was probably not going to work.  He did it anyway because he wasn't willing to destroy Artemis Station to prevent the Tevs from getting it, but he also wasn't willing to retreat and disobey his orders.  He had the worst possible balance of duty vs morality.  He killed himself to get out of a tough moral situation.  Sure, he died valiantly, but his death and the loss of his ship served no purpose whatsoever.  Contrast with Genady, who did his duty first and agonised over it only after his mission was completed.  As a result, Genady and the Katana help give the UEF some of their biggest victories of the war.  Mence just died.

...that's my point. The Yangtze didn't get a shot off because the BBlue is--in story--shown to outrange the Gauss Cannon#Karuna by a significant margin.

So why bring it up?  Where's the problem?  Yangtze couldn't jump, and Kyrematen wouldn't surrender.  Getting destroyed was the only possible outcome.

As an aside: we've seen a number of GTVA ships surrender/get captured.  It would be nice to see a UEF ship surrender for once.

[General Battuta]

Captain Mence charged the Atreus because he thought he could make a difference. He was wrong. Maybe there's some kind of thematic content there!

That's my question, though: shouldn't he have known that well beforehand? Wouldn't every ship captain in the UEF been briefed on the basic capabilities of their opposition's ships, given how they had high-level officers defect over a year beforehand (in some cases with perfect examples of the ships they'd be facing, too)? What made him think he could make a difference with that course of action, if he knew more than enough to know it would be completely pointless (even detrimental to his own cause/goals)? Did he not know that a Raynor's spinal beam would seriously damage his ship before he could even get a shot off at all? Or that he'd be walking right into so many blue beams at once that he wouldn't even slow Steele down one second? If his goal was to make a suicidal stand to buy as much time as possible, why would he choose the quickest and simplest (for the enemy) way of going about it? So--did he simply not know these things (which brings up the question of why), or was he simply in despair and trying to go out in the sentimental way he wanted (regardless of the slight detriment it would have to his own stated objectives)?

You know, there are only eight lines of dialogue in Artemis Station, and three of them contain information that answers your question.

"Nelson to all ships! Hold the line! Reinforcements are on their way."

Mence hopes the defenders can hold out long enough for his ships to reach a position where they can make a difference.

"All fighters, spearhead our assault against the Tev cruisers. Punch a hole for us to the Atreus."

Every time the UEF has won a major victory in this war it's been in part because their strike craft were able to bring their firepower to bear. Mence has strike craft.

"Helm, increase to ramming speed as soon as the way is clear. Forward railguns and missile batteries, prepare to fire. May the universe judge all of us kindly in the next life."

Mence plans to draw the Atreus' attention with his attack. He doesn't think it's going to work well, but he has enough assets that he judges he's got a shot, and he sees no other alternative.

[crizza]

THe Nelson reminds me somehow of the Phoenicia...
Hold the line and get destroyed or jump out to fight another day...

[QuakeIV]

Speaking of which I'v found that in the latest builds the vanilla campaign is slightly broken.  The Phoenicia dies now amongst other things.

[TwentyPercentCooler]

Speaking of which I'v found that in the latest builds the vanilla campaign is slightly broken.  The Phoenicia dies now amongst other things.

Didn't it always die? There were a few odd times over the years when I'd see it survive to warp out, but mission dialogue suggests it was supposed to get evaporated.

[Scotty]

It gets guardianed at between 1 and 4% remaining.  Any of the times it dies, the damage it takes skips right past the guardian threshold.

[SypheDMar]

Didn't it always die? There were a few odd times over the years when I'd see it survive to warp out, but mission dialogue suggests it was supposed to get evaporated.

It also may depend on Difficulty level. Easier difficulties (from anecdotal observations) seem to increase the chance of the Phoenicia's survival.

[TwentyPercentCooler]

I always used to feel like I was supposed to save it. Then it would blow up and I'd feel bad.

A bit more OT, I guess: having mass drivers/gauss cannons that significantly outrange beam weapons shouldn't be underestimated. Narayanas are unbelievably dangerous; the GTVA has probably thanked their sky wizards of choice many times that the UEF doesn't have more of them.