Author Topic: Hades' Hemera and BP and stuff  (Read 10141 times)

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Hades' Hemera and BP and stuff
hmm... i see it as the UEF's logistics unit :D

 
Re: Hades' Hemera and BP and stuff
hmm... i see it as the UEF's logistics unit :D

The UEF don't need and so don't have logistics vessels. They're operating on the home front, with their main manufacturing bases a jump or two away.
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Offline headdie

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Re: Hades' Hemera and BP and stuff
Cybertrance: If it gets included in BP, it's more likely to replace the Anemoi than anything else, I think.  Looks far more like a GTVA ship than a UEF one anyway.

Hades: I said it before, but it looks really great.

not to mention I dont think the UEF has a position for a Logistics vessle, they even ***** about how stupid the GTVA is to deploy such large civilian ship into a combat zone, talking about the loss of the Collossus not teaching them that bigger is not always better
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Offline Aesaar

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Re: Hades' Hemera and BP and stuff
I didn't think I needed to mention that, since everyone else did. 

And I always found the point about the Colossus amusing because the Solaris destroyers are the biggest ships in Sol.

 

Offline headdie

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Re: Hades' Hemera and BP and stuff
I didn't think I needed to mention that, since everyone else did. 

And I always found the point about the Colossus amusing because the Solaris destroyers are the biggest ships in Sol.

very true, by 500 meters.  But then many in the UEF considered them an extravogant waste before the GTVA invasion, given their lack of battlefield presence it could be argued they still are a waste, though they are probably a cause for Steele to closely examine each battle plan just in case.
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Re: Hades' Hemera and BP and stuff
Cybertrance: If it gets included in BP, it's more likely to replace the Anemoi than anything else, I think.  Looks far more like a GTVA ship than a UEF one anyway.

Hades: I said it before, but it looks really great.

not to mention I dont think the UEF has a position for a Logistics vessle, they even ***** about how stupid the GTVA is to deploy such large civilian ship into a combat zone, talking about the loss of the Collossus not teaching them that bigger is not always better

They're also complete hypocrites/morons for saying something like that, given how Sol would be a depopulated graveyard if it weren't for the Galatea, Bastion, etc. The Colossus, even if considered impractical, saved the entire GTVA twice over and almost singlehandedly crushed the NTF. It was certainly useful as a political/cultural/morale tool, with a 20-year, huge, joint Terran-Vasudan project that was crewed by 30,000 Terrans and Vasudans.

Oh, and the Wargods mocking the Tevs for building destroyer-sized freighters while in the middle of a bold, critical mission to neutralize/capture such a ship because it's giving them hell and giving the Tevs a huge logistical, tactical, and strategic advantage is just plain hilarious.

If you put the three Solaris-class destroyers together, they get surprisingly close to the size of the Colossus--and the UEF built all three when the only enemy they had was a loose band of pirates/terrorists using outdated fighters and small cruisers, while the GTVA could have been attacked by another Shivan invasion at any time, full of Shivan destroyers or even superdestroyers. The Solaris-class has got to be a logistical nightmare anywhere outside of Sol; it seems like it would flat-out run out of ammo in any kind of prolonged engagement, and good luck ferrying hundreds of Apoc torpedoes and thousands railgun slugs to such a ship every time it engages an enemy.


---


The Anemoi, I think, might be worth keeping around alongside the Hemera, mainly because the Anemoi looks (both aesthetically and physically/size-wise) like it's capable of resupplying and repairing half a battlegroup by itself in a few days. The Hemera kind of seems to be more of a hybrid between logistics vessel and warship/frigate. Significantly less capable than the Anemoi in a logistics role, but far more capable in combat and much more defensible. The Hemera would excel in frontline actions, while the Anemoi would work its magic in the rear-lines/more secure areas, where its greater vulnerability to attack is less significant.

Also, I'm not sure if you're decided in terms of keeping or removing the forward four guns, but it is interesting to think of the Hemera as a modestly effective artillery ship for the GTVA--doesn't pack as much punch as a Narayana (not counting the Nara's powerful torps, which are something of a different kind of artillery in their own right), but can peck smaller ships to death or provide distant fire support against larger targets from a safe range. As far as damage output goes...dunno, maybe equivalent to a Karuna's mass drivers? Who knows, that can be tweaked easily enough down the line, I guess.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2012, 02:42:44 pm by SaltyWaffles »
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Offline MatthTheGeek

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Re: Hades' Hemera and BP and stuff
Salty.

What are you doing.

Salty.

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If you want to do BP discussion, please do it in the BP forum. This is a model feedback thread. kthksbai.
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Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Hades' Hemera and BP and stuff
Salty.

What are you doing.

Salty.

STAPH.

If you want to do BP discussion, please do it in the BP forum. This is a model feedback thread. kthksbai.

Staying on topic is overrated!

(everything is overrated!!)

 

Offline headdie

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Re: Hades' Hemera and BP and stuff
Cybertrance: If it gets included in BP, it's more likely to replace the Anemoi than anything else, I think.  Looks far more like a GTVA ship than a UEF one anyway.

Hades: I said it before, but it looks really great.

not to mention I dont think the UEF has a position for a Logistics vessle, they even ***** about how stupid the GTVA is to deploy such large civilian ship into a combat zone, talking about the loss of the Collossus not teaching them that bigger is not always better

They're also complete hypocrites/morons for saying something like that, given how Sol would be a depopulated graveyard if it weren't for the Galatea, Bastion, etc. The Colossus, even if considered impractical, saved the entire GTVA twice over and almost singlehandedly crushed the NTF. It was certainly useful as a political/cultural/morale tool, with a 20-year, huge, joint Terran-Vasudan project that was crewed by 30,000 Terrans and Vasudans.

The statement was that bigger is not always better.  Ultimately outside of the NTF rebellion, the Colossus did bugger all that couldn’t have been done as well by a intelligently deployed destroyer task force.  Not only that but Command practically had a hissy fit over each time the ship was so much as scratched because it would take a massive amount of time to repair the damage.  Then finally, when it's big moment to shine came and actually do what it was designed to do... the shivans out classed it again to a ridiculous degree.  Not only that but in the BPverse even the GTVA admit that the strategy of super massive warships wont work vs the Shivans by not building any more ships of comparable or greater scale.

Quote
Oh, and the Wargods mocking the Tevs for building destroyer-sized freighters while in the middle of a bold, critical mission to neutralize/capture such a ship because it's giving them hell and giving the Tevs a huge logistical, tactical, and strategic advantage is just plain hilarious.

that mission actually emphasises the issue with the concept of massive scale lightly armed supply ships in combat zones because you indeed have a high value target that is inherently difficult to protect once located, and while the UEF struggle to locate them manually, given the force numbers displayed by the Shivans and their apparent ability to locate ships in space (eg the number of convoy escort missions that go belly up in all iterations of FS) they are a at best questionable solution to the GTVA's logistics needs

Quote
If you put the three Solaris-class destroyers together, they get surprisingly close to the size of the Colossus--and the UEF built all three when the only enemy they had was a loose band of pirates/terrorists using outdated fighters and small cruisers, while the GTVA could have been attacked by another Shivan invasion at any time, full of Shivan destroyers or even superdestroyers. The Solaris-class has got to be a logistical nightmare anywhere outside of Sol; it seems like it would flat-out run out of ammo in any kind of prolonged engagement, and good luck ferrying hundreds of Apoc torpedoes and thousands railgun slugs to such a ship every time it engages an enemy.
not this again...

Colossus = 6166 m
Solaris = 3496 m
Raynor = 3200 m
Titan = 2582 m
Orion = 2030 m

Solaris is 1.7 times the size of an Orion, the ship I assume is the Solaris' predecessor, which is not all that silly.  The Colossus is again 1.7 times the size of a Solaris and 3 times the size of the Orion and no where near as well armed as a Solaris.  Also can I draw your attention to the techroom for the Solaris which is entered into the Solaris wiki page.  The tech room entry opens with...

Prior to the outbreak of the UEF-GTVA war, the Solaris class Destroyers were the most controversial pieces of military hardware in use by the Federation. They represented a massive investment of resources and manpower that, according to critics, was fundamentally unnecessary. Designed by an ad-hoc committee of the Federation's best engineering and tactical thinkers and built at Mars' Bradbury Fleet Yards, these enormous warships seemed like answers to a nonexistent problem.

So yes even the UEF called them a waste of time and resources, until the war broke out and as I have said previously, their lack of direct combat actions still leave them open to question.

The difference being that the Colossus was deployed in it's intended role as the GTVA's high profile shield vs the Shivans and it was found sorely lacking after only a few weeks at most.  All three Solaris destroyers are still kicking and their large fighter wings are continuing to make an impact on the war 18 months.

and that is not to mention as a warship Solaris destroyers are designed for direct contact with the enemy and win or loose will probably acquit them very well.  The Anemoi on the other hand would have been floating debris if the UEF were in a mind to shoot at it in ernest.

Finally when compared to their front line GTVA counterparts, they are not that big, less than 300 meters longer than a Raynor and 1000 longer than a Titan and the Solaris is built to do both jobs, something has to give and in this case it is physical dimensions.

All in all the Solaris is justifiable (after the fact), the Colossus was a good destroyer hunter but ultimately a joke as an answer to the problem of the Shivans.  The Anemoi is just far too vulnerable for it's role, perhaps if had a reasonable defensive armament (it's hitpoints are not too shabby though), but as it is, if the UEF turn up wave the white flag, if the shivans turn up, pray your jump drive is charged and programmed.
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Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Hades' Hemera and BP and stuff
I don't have the values here with me at the moment, but I'd venture that with those lenght measurements to be realistic - Colossus with 6.2km length and Solaris with 3.5km, that actually means 5.5 times in volume and weight, with at least 3 times its surface.

And this is just inferred from one measure (lenght). I'm not adding the "legs" that the Colossus has and the Solaris does not.


One can easily argue that to put so many eggs in one basket was what mostly drove the GTVA into despair in its second shivan incursion war, while the problems in Sol had only to do with its investment in the first place.

 

Offline headdie

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Re: Hades' Hemera and BP and stuff
I just realised I missed a point.

...The Solaris-class has got to be a logistical nightmare anywhere outside of Sol; it seems like it would flat-out run out of ammo in any kind of prolonged engagement, and good luck ferrying hundreds of Apoc torpedoes and thousands railgun slugs to such a ship every time it engages an enemy.

Except in dire situations the Solaris destroyers have not left their home ports during the war, believe me, if their home port can't keep pace with the ships logistics demand then a mobile ship has no hope.  Also my understanding is that these ships were never meant to leave their home system, they are defensive warships.
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Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Hades' Hemera and BP and stuff
With it being 3.5kms, one would imagine there's a lot of volume there for missiles and ammo?

3.5km is *a lot*.

If we "simplify" the Solaris to a tube of 0.3km radius and 3.5km length it's mostly a 1km3 volume.

A missile has what, 5m3, tops?

The ammunition problem is only "real" if the strategy never involved the Solaris to have thousands of missiles and so on in its inside at every moment.

 
Re: Hades' Hemera and BP and stuff
It's laughable that you can even try to say the Solaris' entire volume is filled with missiles.
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Offline The E

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Re: Hades' Hemera and BP and stuff
It isn't, for obvious reasons. The Solaris class isn't really built for long slugging matches, it's combat endurance is very low compared to GTVA ships (from an ammunition expenditure pov). Also, Apocalypse Torps are somewhat larger than that, they're 1.5*1.5*9.44 meters, or 22m^3, so they'll shoot themselves dry in a rather short time.
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Re: Hades' Hemera and BP and stuff
12 launchers fires 4 torpedoes each every 20 seconds. That's 48 torpedoes per salvo, about 144 torpedoes fired in a minute plus a few seconds.

10 minutes of continued firing would be equal to about 30 salvos, that's 1440 torpedoes. That's probably enough to hypothetically kill off a good chunk the combined GTVA forces in Sol if most of these were to hit their intended targets (= doesn't warp out, see Hood@Aristeia).

Talk about missile spam ...

 

Offline Nohiki

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Re: Hades' Hemera and BP and stuff
Also don't the logistic class ships have to carry plasma material for the beams? I imagine that would take some volume, even if liquified, didn't is tay kilotons per salvo somewhere? (might be on the Sathanas, but still). if it is gas at all.
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Offline Aesaar

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Re: Hades' Hemera and BP and stuff
The difference being that the Colossus was deployed in it's intended role as the GTVA's high profile shield vs the Shivans and it was found sorely lacking after only a few weeks at most.  All three Solaris destroyers are still kicking and their large fighter wings are continuing to make an impact on the war 18 months.

Like most military hardware designed in peacetime, the Colossus was built to fight the last war.  If the Second Incursion had been like the first: a Lucifer leading a bunch of Demons and lighter ships, the Colossus would have mopped the floor with them. For a while, it actually performed fairly well.  It successfully destroyed what Command saw as this attack's Lucifer equivalent (Sath 1), and thus did exactly was built to do. 

The problem is that the Second Incursion wasn't like the first.  When the Shivans changed the playing field, the Colossus just couldn't cope.  It wasn't a failure, it was just made obsolete.

Quote
The Anemoi is just far too vulnerable for it's role, perhaps if had a reasonable defensive armament (it's hitpoints are not too shabby though), but as it is, if the UEF turn up wave the white flag, if the shivans turn up, pray your jump drive is charged and programmed.
  Keep in mind Steele knows who he's fighting.  There was no reason to suspect the UEF could find the Agincourt.  But knowing how unpredictable the Shivans are, I seriously doubt he'd have left it undefended if he was fighting them instead.  Just look at where the Anemois are in AoA.  Keeping the logistics ships with most of their battlegroup is probably standard doctrine.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2012, 02:02:39 pm by Aesaar »

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Hades' Hemera and BP and stuff
The Anemoi has exactly the amount of defenses it needs for its role. It's never going to be able to hold its own without escorts.

 

Offline -Norbert-

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Re: Hades' Hemera and BP and stuff
Like most military hardware designed in peacetime, the Colossus was built to fight the last war.  If the Second Incursion had been like the first: a Lucifer leading a bunch of Demons and lighter ships, the Colossus would have mopped the floor with them. For a while, it actually performed fairly well.  It successfully destroyed what Command saw as this attack's Lucifer equivalent (Sath 1), and thus did exactly was built to do. 

The problem is that the Second Incursion wasn't like the first.  When the Shivans changed the playing field, the Colossus just couldn't cope.  It wasn't a failure, it was just made obsolete.

Maybe, but if they had used all the material, crew and weapons to build 5 destroyers instead, they would have worked just as well for the Sathanas 1 and the NTF and been more usefull during the Capella battles.
With 5 destroyers you can either concentrate them in one location, giving you pretty much everything the Colossus can do (even more, since you can flank and surround the enemy, ect.) or you can split them up and send them to different locations if needed. On top of that, due to their smaller size, they'll also have better real- and subspace manouverbility.
The main benefit of the Colly was her being a symbol for unity, recovery from the great war and being able to overcome anything... untill the Shivans turned that completely around by blowing her up....


Also don't the logistic class ships have to carry plasma material for the beams? I imagine that would take some volume, even if liquified, didn't is tay kilotons per salvo somewhere? (might be on the Sathanas, but still). if it is gas at all.
Wasn't that talking about the force of the weapon rather than the actual weight of the particles it pours out?

 

Offline Hades

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Re: Hades' Hemera and BP and stuff
The Anemoi has exactly the amount of defenses it needs for its role. It's never going to be able to hold its own without escorts.
Ehhh, I really cannot help but wonder if adding at least a few more flaks and blobs wouldn't be too much to ask, it is used in enemy territory, only makes sense.
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