[MatthTheGeek]

Do you want to start arguing facts ?

[Phantom Hoover]

If you want to put your unconditional trust in beings far too vast to have a truly comprehensible purpose, let alone foreseeable plans at the microscopic scale of humanity, then please don't drag the rest of us with you.

[MatthTheGeek]

If you'd rather have a life of warmongering, destruction, poverty, sadness and constant fear from Shivans instead, be my guest !

[Phantom Hoover]

You act like the alternative is demonstrably better.

[MatthTheGeek]

You mean the facts that the UEF was at peace and had a prosperity and a level of education the GTVA could only dream of ? Yeah, I definitely can see how that is not better than the alternative.

[Phantom Hoover]

What the Vishnans giveth, the Vishnans can taketh away.

[Useful Dave]

You mean the facts that the UEF was at peace and had a prosperity and a level of education the GTVA could only dream of ? Yeah, I definitely can see how that is not better than the alternative.

However they had a closed system, and the results that brings about especially after knowing that there was a wide open universe out there, and that it is now forever shut off to them after being full of xenocidal aliens trying to burn planets.

[General Battuta]

This isn't any kind of word of God, just rumination, but - how outraged should we really be that any component of the UEF/Ubuntu program was 'dictated' by the Vishnans?

FS1 Alpha 1 knew the Ancients' crime was sin. S/he clearly believed that there was some evaluative moral component to the Shivan threat. The Elders apparently successfully determined the details of this acid test and developed a plan of action to successfully negotiate it. Isn't that good grand strategy?

I'm not saying nobody should be alarmed by it. Nor am I saying that FS1 Alpha 1 was necessarily right about the motivations behind the criteria (be good or else!). I am saying that (as, hopefully, with everything in BP) there's a case on both sides.

[Aesaar]

There's no pride to take in the UEF.  Humanity didn't make it, the Vishnans did.  I'd rather have an imperfect human world than a utopia handed to me from on high.

By accepting Vishnan control, we merely trade one form of apocalypse for another.  The Vishnans would kill the soul of humanity as surely as the Shivans would kill its body.

I hate the Vishnans for the same reason I hate the Abrahamic God (religion is not the topic of this thread, let's not have a debate about it).  We accept to be controlled "for our own good" or we die.  I'd rather die fighting.

If the Shivan alternative doesn't result in us being left alone, **** them too.

[MatthTheGeek]

I'd rather have a world where everyone is happy, cooperation with aliens or not, than the alternative. Humanity has shown far and wide that despite all our millennia of civilization we are still barely better than animals fighting among themselves for a whole bunch of petty reasons. The Elder's plan brought peace, prosperity and happiness. Who cares if aliens are behind it, as long as everyone has enough to eat, to be happy, has education, has freedom of speech and everything else ?

[Aesaar]

Cooperation with and controlled by are two different things.  Perhaps you see it as the former.  I don't.

And I do think it matters where our achievements come from.  They mean so much more when they're truly our achievements, rather than handed to us.

[General Battuta]

Cooperation with and controlled by are two different things.  Perhaps you see it as the former.  I don't.

And I do think it matters where our achievements come from.  They mean so much more when they're truly our achievements, rather than handed to us.

Was the Ubuntu program something less than a genuinely human project, though? (again, real question, not leading!)

[Aesaar]

I can't say for sure, but I'd say it's one of the Vishnan ideas, or at least its spread is a result of their help.  Seems to me that the places where Ubuntu has the biggest hold are the places where the Elders (and ergo, Vishnan intentions) are least challenged.  But I can't say for sure.

The Jovians, for instance, aren't much different from what the GTVA would be if they didn't have that economic depression and the Shivans to deal with.  They're the least - er - Ubuntu humans in Sol save for the Gefs.  And their admiral is the one our heroine runs to for help because she can't trust the Elders.  They're the least controlled. 

Peace between the Jovians and the GTVA may not be impossible.

[MatthTheGeek]

And I do think it matters where our achievements come from.  They mean so much more when they're truly our achievements, rather than handed to us.

And I for one believe that when we're talking about the prosperity and happiness of humanity, it doesn't matter one bit whether it was offered to us or not.

The Jovians, for instance, aren't much different from what the GTVA would be if they didn't have that economic depression and the Shivans to deal with.  They're the least - er - Ubuntu humans in Sol save for the Gefs.  And their admiral is the one our heroine runs to for help because she can't trust the Elders.  The least controlled. 

Which didn't prevent them from accepting and profiting from Ubuntu's prosperity and happiness. Should say something about not looking a gift horse in the mouth now, doesn't it.

[Aesaar]

So what's your point?  That the Jovians profited from their incorporation in the UEF?  Of course they did.  Would the UEF's prosperity be possible without Ubuntu and/or Vishnan interference?  Maybe, maybe not.  But who's to say what the GTVA would be like if the Second Incursion hadn't happened?

The Vasudans seem to get along fairly well without the Vishnans.

Or are the Vishnans controlling them too? (serious question, not rhetorical)

And I for one believe that when we're talking about the prosperity and happiness of humanity, it doesn't matter one bit whether it was offered to us or not.

  I disagree.

[manwiththemachinegun]

There's no pride to take in the UEF.  Humanity didn't make it, the Vishnans did.  I'd rather have an imperfect human world than a utopia handed to me from on high.

By accepting Vishnan control, we merely trade one form of apocalypse for another.  The Vishnans would kill the soul of humanity as surely as the Shivans would kill its body.

I hate the Vishnans for the same reason I hate the Abrahamic God (religion is not the topic of this thread, let's not have a debate about it).  We accept to be controlled "for our own good" or we die.  I'd rather die fighting.

If the Shivan alternative doesn't result in us being left alone, **** them too.

Without a theology discussion, the reverse is actually true. The God of the Old testament offers free choice, with consequences for breaking the rules. Obviously some find that abhorrent, others comforting. The nature of man is not being changed, only being held accountable. Much like the Shivans. The Genocidal Ancients were themselves destroyed. An eye for an eye. The issue with the Shivans seems to be, their motives for existing are seemingly breaking down. They're unstable, breaking their own protocols and upsetting the galactic balance again.

The Vishnans aren't the same. According to BP's database, they are fundamentally altering the way humans think and behave on a massive level. Their motives are secret, their control is secret, they are altering humans at a social and individual level. It is horrifying. The GTVA is right to conclude, however benevolent the Vishnans appear to be, they are still altering humans from our base line and their control over our civilization is unacceptable.

Do you believe mankind has a right to choose its own fate? Be that good or bad? Then you should be freaked by the Vishnans.
Do you believe mankind is awful and the only way we'll ever change is if someone FORCES us to? Then you should welcome the Vishnans.

Mankind's new golden age is NOT, mankind's golden age. It's the Vishnans, a result of their social engineering.

This isn't any kind of word of God, just rumination, but - how outraged should we really be that any component of the UEF/Ubuntu program was 'dictated' by the Vishnans?

FS1 Alpha 1 knew the Ancients' crime was sin. S/he clearly believed that there was some evaluative moral component to the Shivan threat. The Elders apparently successfully determined the details of this acid test and developed a plan of action to successfully negotiate it. Isn't that good grand strategy?

I'm not saying nobody should be alarmed by it. Nor am I saying that FS1 Alpha 1 was necessarily right about the motivations behind the criteria (be good or else!). I am saying that (as, hopefully, with everything in BP) there's a case on both sides.

The issue is, is a medicine powerful enough to kill the patient worth the price?

Stopping genocide, war, hatred, that's all wonderful. But that can't be engineered out us.

The Elders and Alpha One's plan could very well be successful in warding off another Shivan invasion if left in total isolation. The consequence is, would it really be human civilization that survived? Or something "else?" something "alien"?

[Aesaar]

I don't think "do as I say or die" is free will.  By that standard, you might say a slave is free, because he can say no all he wants, but he'll suffer the consequences.

That's what these two are doing.  They're holding us to some arbitrary standards and killing us (or allowing us to be killed) if we don't meet them.  The Christian God does the same exact thing, but replace death with eternal torment.  The comparison is an apt one.

But I really don't want to have a discussion about religion, so I won't post about it again.

But yes, the Vishnans are also attempting to force us to meet those standards by means other than the threat of annihilation.  To spare us from the fire, the Elders would sacrifice what makes us human.  I find it abhorrent.

[General Battuta]

What are the Elders sacrificing? What part of their plan could definitively not be achieved without Vishnan intervention, and what cost are they paying in humanity?

I ask this not out of an attempt to put my finger on the scales but to tease out some of the difficulty here. Did Samuel Bei choose to save his comrades and be reunited with his family, or was he coerced into that choice? Did he pay a price, or make a mutually beneficial trade?

[MatthTheGeek]

The Vishnans aren't the same. According to BP's database, they are fundamentally altering the way humans think and behave on a massive level. Their motives are secret, their control is secret, they are altering humans at a social and individual level. It is horrifying.

Or is it ? They're improving our condition. Improving our behaviour. Improving our lives. That's not something to be horrified of.

Do you believe mankind has a right to choose its own fate? Be that good or bad? Then you should be freaked by the Vishnans.
Do you believe mankind is awful and the only way we'll ever change is if someone FORCES us to? Then you should welcome the Vishnans.

Humanity's been given millennia to choose its own fate. Look where this got us. If humanity has not stopped one bit to behave like petty animals despite all out civilisation and technological advancement and stuff, then we need a shepherd, or stay beasts forever.

The Elders and Alpha One's plan could very well be successful in warding off another Shivan invasion if left in total isolation. The consequence is, would it really be human civilization that survived? Or something "else?" something "alien"?

Something else doesn't mean something worse. You're just afraid of change.

EDIT: So what if the Elder's plan has had Vishnan involvement. What prevents you from accepting it if it's good for us ? Just because it's not 100% pure human-bred, really ? You would let petty human pride go in the way of human advancement ? Sacrifice the future and happiness of billions because they took advice from elsewhere ?

[General Battuta]

It seems like a lot of the question here is whether the Vishnans said 'here's the blueprint, make it happen', or whether the Elders said 'what's the end goal? We're a smart, resourceful species, we'll figure out a way'.

I personally lean towards the latter; the UEF was a human achievement.