[manwiththemachinegun]

And the only alternative is allowing aliens to play with our DNA to make us better on their terms?

I'm not quite as pessimistic on the human condition. War is a problem, crime is a problem. But we're not in the pre historic past. We have some concepts, religious or otherwise, of compassion, law, altruism. Several times in the last century, we had an opportunity to nuke ourselves back to the stone age, and we didn't. It's a long shot, but human nature is not set in stone.

To me, it reminds me of Rasczak aside (keep in mind I'm not bringing Starship Trooper's politics into this), that being given a first place medal when you've EARNED forth isn't a victory at all. It's a shame.

[The E]

And the only alternative is allowing aliens to play with our DNA to make us better on their terms?

Wait, hang on. Since when is DNA manipulation involved? Let's not get into hyperbole here.

[Aesaar]

It seems like a lot of the question here is whether the Vishnans said 'here's the blueprint, make it happen', or whether the Elders said 'what's the end goal? We're a smart, resourceful species, we'll figure out a way'.

That's exactly the question.  How much of the UEF are the Vishnans responsible for? 

I don't know.  Maybe you're right and the UEF is a human achievement.  But will that remain so in the future?  If they give us a utopia by threatening us and possibly mind controlling us into fitting into it, would we still be human?  If neither we nor our society are allowed to be imperfect, I'd say a great deal of what makes us human has been lost. 

[MatthTheGeek]

You say that like if staying human (whatever definition of "human" you are using) is a goal in itself. Happiness for all, prosperity and education seem more important objectives to me.

Do Vasudans being born Vasudans mean they failed ?

[manwiththemachinegun]

You say that like if staying human (whatever definition of "human" you are using) is a goal in itself. Happiness for all, prosperity and education seem more important objectives to me.

Do Vasudans being born Vasudans mean they failed ?

No, but the bigger issue is the Vishnans have already written off humanity according to Bei. They've issued a kill order to the Shivans and the gears are in motion. So yes, the Vishnans are all about peace, love, prosperity, and if you deviate from their grand scheme for 18 months in a war of self defense (from the perspective of the UEF), they'll write you off and throw your whole race to the wolves. Even the most antagonistic depictions of Yahweh aren't that bad.

So, yes, the UEF are expendable pawns in the eyes of the Vishnans. We've seen nothing to indicate they care anything about the long term benefit of our species. Even assuming the GTVA was 100% in the wrong in attacking Sol, the Vishnans view that act of war as a failure on the part of the UEF as well. How is THAT fair and impartial? Nearly everyone in Sol wanted the same thing as the Vishnans, and they will all die on a whim.

It seems like a lot of the question here is whether the Vishnans said 'here's the blueprint, make it happen', or whether the Elders said 'what's the end goal? We're a smart, resourceful species, we'll figure out a way'.

That's exactly the question.  How much of the UEF are the Vishnans responsible for? 

I don't know.  Maybe you're right and the UEF is a human achievement.  But will that remain so in the future?  If they give us a utopia by threatening us and possibly mind controlling us into fitting into it, would we still be human?  If neither we nor our society are allowed to be imperfect, I'd say a great deal of what makes us human has been lost. 

I would agree. And if the endgame of the Elders was to render the human race harmless in the eyes of the Vishnans/Shivans, then they greatly misjudged the benevolence of their new benefactors. Seeing as how the Vishnans are prepared to wash their hands of this little experiment after barely 50 years, despite the overwhelming commitment of the UEF towards the goals of non-violence, religious tolerance, free education and social justice. A single inter-system war, devastating though that may be, was enough to convince them to issue a recall on the entire species.

The mind control aspect seemed pretty heavily implied by Laporte when confronting Bei about the Vishnans. "Did you tell them what they wanted to know? Or did they crack you open?" Maybe the Vishnans regularly mess with human brains and maybe they don't, but the issue is they can.

[General Battuta]

There's the question of how much more trustworthy Laporte is than Bei, though.

There's also the question of why aliens would care about particulars of human social justice. Are they micromanaging interventionists like the Culture, or are the factors they care about actually more big-picture and cosmic?

[ellerto]

There's the question of how much more trustworthy Laporte is than Bei, though.

If I were there, I wouldn't trust her in any way. She's weird.

[MatthTheGeek]

So yes, the Vishnans are all about peace, love, prosperity, and if you deviate from their grand scheme for 18 months in a war of self defense (from the perspective of the UEF), they'll write you off and throw your whole race to the wolves.

...

Even assuming the GTVA was 100% in the wrong in attacking Sol, the Vishnans view that act of war as a failure on the part of the UEF as well. How is THAT fair and impartial?

Tevs are humans too. That war is the just culmination of millennia of humans proving time and time again that they are unsalvageable. I would have done the same in the Vishnan's position.

When was anything said about Vishnans being fair and impartial ?

[Aesaar]

You say that like if staying human (whatever definition of "human" you are using) is a goal in itself. Happiness for all, prosperity and education seem more important objectives to me.

I've already told you that I think the value of those things is severely reduced if they're just given to us.  They're also wasted.  A person does not understand the value of something if they don't understand the work that goes into acquiring that thing.  The same is true for a culture. 

Real triumph is overcoming the obstacles, and that's what humanity is built on.  When you talk of what we've done with ourselves for thousands of years, you point to the obstacles we haven't overcome and ignore all the ones we have.  But there's tremendous value in the latter.

The Vishnans seem to want to remove the obstacles entirely, but worst of all, they want us to die if we reject their guidance.

They'd turn us into pets, utterly subject to their whims.  And they'll make us die if we have the audacity to refuse.  That's not benevolence, it's petty spite.

Do Vasudans being born Vasudans mean they failed ?

No, because the Vasudans aren't humans.  They deserve to choose their own fate just as humanity does.


You know, this discussion is funny because I'm typically one who argues against abstract concepts in favor of concrete things, just like you're doing.  BP is helping me realise which abstract concepts I genuinely value.  Very few stories manage to reach me that way.

[Scotty]

So this discussion is going in three or four different directions, as far as I can tell.

One of those tangents reminds me very much about that thought experiment Battuta posted a while back, Three Worlds Collide (or, as described in the title of the thread "Test your morality: The Babyeaters and the Superhappies").

Three civilizations with three entirely different baselines for morality and proper behavior. 

One is violent out of need to survive, and that violence transformed into a concept that literally eating your babies was the most admirable thing that a being could do.  If I may draw a parallel, these are the Shivans.

One is peaceful, almost incomprehensible to human minds, and believes that all beings should be happy, all the time.  The parallel here isn't as clear or as helpful, but these are the Vishnans.

The last are humans, are thoroughly disgusted and revolted by the Babyeaters, and at the same time bewildered and confused by the Superhappies.  The thought experiment allows the reader to choose the results.  The ending of one of the choices is, to this day, one of the most horrifying things I've ever read.  This choice is the "Normal" ending, where the crew, taking the place of the reader for the narrative's sake, decides to "accept" the Superhappies proposal demand to be happy forever, and I think I'll post the relevent part here.

He stepped through the door, into a neat and well-lighted transparent capsule.
 
The door slid shut again.
 
Without a lurch, without a sound, the capsule moved up toward the alien ship.
 
One last time, Akon thought of all his fear, of the sick feeling in his stomach and the burning that was becoming a pain in his throat.  He pinched himself on the arm, hard, very hard, and felt the warning signal telling him to stop.
 
Goodbye, Akon thought; and the tears began falling down his cheek, as though that one silent word had, for the very last time, broken his heart.
   
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
And he lived happily ever after.

The Vishnans are, thought not as overtly, and not as significantly, fundamentally changing humanity.  They are playing the roles of the Superhappies in this scenario.

And that's why I support the GTVA.

[MatthTheGeek]

You know, this discussion is funny because I'm typically one who argues against abstract concepts in favor of concrete things, just like you're doing.  BP is helping me realise which abstract concepts I genuinely value.  Very few stories manage to reach me that way.

And it's good that it does ! I like that discussion. If you want to know, I really understand both sides of the problem (as I pointed out to Phantom Hoover on IRC earlier) and I don't actually have my mind set on one or the other, but since noone else is arguing for the other side of the discussion, I have to, or there would be no discussion !

They're also wasted.  A person does not understand the value of something if they don't understand the work that goes into acquiring that thing.  The same is true for a culture. 

Real triumph is overcoming the obstacles, and that's what humanity is built on.

So you'd rather have people that are unhappy and have to overcome challenges, than people that are happy with challenges that other people have overcome for them in the past ? Why, maybe we should give up electricity, internet and everything so it makes our life harder ! That's what makes us human after all !

How does it matter whether those challenges have been overcome by humans that are long dead and you've never met anyway, or by aliens ? Do humans using Vasudan reactor technology means they're less human ?

The Vishnans seem to want to remove the obstacles entirely, but worst of all, they want us to die if we reject their guidance.

They'd turn us into pets, utterly subject to their whims.  And they'll make us die if we have the audacity to refuse.  That's not benevolence, it's petty spite.

If we don't stop behaving like animals it's only legitimate that they'll turn us into pets !

EDIT:

The Vishnans are, thought not as overtly, and not as significantly, fundamentally changing humanity.  They are playing the roles of the Superhappies in this scenario.

And that's why I support the GTVA.

And that'd be more a reason to support them in my point of view. How is refusing this kind of improvement to our condition any different than refusing to use electricity or internet just because we're afraid to change ?

[manwiththemachinegun]

Because technological progress is not equal to social re-engineering of an entire species. You also seem rather predisposed to the idea that humans haven't made any progress in the past few thousand years and we're still barbarous animals. I would argue certain fundamental ideas about equality, compassion, and justice have permeated throughout the globe from religious and non-religious sources, even if not everyone accepts them. See the Arab Spring for just one example. There's a long road ahead, but it isn't accurate to say people have made no progress at all.

And again, are the Vishnans offering us an end to all conflict? Or are they giving us a cookbook entiled, "to serve man"? We don't know what their endgame is. We do know they're as quick to sanitize their followers as the Shivans are.

Tevs are humans too. That war is the just culmination of millennia of humans proving time and time again that they are unsalvageable. I would have done the same in the Vishnan's position.

When was anything said about Vishnans being fair and impartial ?

I think all I'll say, is I am thankful the ability to judge an entire species' worth and/or survival is beyond the capacity of individual human beings, myself included.

[Scotty]

Indeed.  I'm actually a bit disappointed at how little thought Matth seems to be actually putting into this.

[Aesaar]

And it's good that it does ! I like that discussion. If you want to know, I really understand both sides of the problem (as I pointed out to Phantom Hoover on IRC earlier) and I don't actually have my mind set on one or the other, but since noone else is arguing for the other side of the discussion, I have to, or there would be no discussion !

It's a good discussion.  I understand the UEF position, I just strongly disagree with it.  Of course, you have information that the rest of us non-beta testers aren't privy to.  Maybe Acts 4-5 will make me reconsider.

Still, it would also be nice to have some genuine UEF supporters explain their positions.

So you'd rather have people that are unhappy and have to overcome challenges, than people that are happy with challenges that other people have overcome for them in the past ? Why, maybe we should give up electricity, internet and everything so it makes our life harder ! That's what makes us human after all !

How does it matter whether those challenges have been overcome by humans that are long dead and you've never met anyway, or by aliens ? Do humans using Vasudan reactor technology means they're less human?

Because, like I said, cultures tend to grow much like people, generally speaking. 

This will be quite simplified, but I think it gets the point across: Europe's history is an insanely violent one.  It was a damn **** place to live only a few hundred years ago.  It certainly isn't now.  Europe overcame those obstacles, and it's in no small part due to that history that Western countries are the most developed countries in the world.  It was the lessons learned from mistakes that built western civilization.  It's not perfect, and it never will be.

Now take Africa.  Sub-Saharan Africa is, generally speaking, not a nice place to live.  Yet they were given the benefits of modern (at the time) civilization.  The White Man's Burden, as they say.  The difference is that the Africans never learned the lessons that led to the development of those benefits, and as a result did not place the same value on them, nor did they learn the responsibilities that should have come with them.  This isn't even mentioning things like slavery.  Again, it's a very simplified summary.

Medieval Europe is what the GTVA is.  If the Vishnans were benevolent (which they aren't, else they wouldn't want to kill us all for refusing), colonialism would be what they were doing.


As for the Vasudans, cooperation is different from domination.  They aren't hiding their intentions.  When the GTVA asks for a reactor, they get exactly what they asked for.  And the Vasudans ask for a beam cannon back.  It's a peer relationship.  Vishnan - Humans really, really isn't.

You're pretty good at getting long responses out of me.  Funny because you understand perfectly well what I mean already.

[Ryuseiken]

Well let's consider whether the cultural ideals and technology themselves are relevant before lambasting them for being engineered by Vishnans. There are still many aspects of the UEF I admire, and though the Vishnans may have engineered us towards certain beliefs/advances, that doesn't mean those beliefs or technology are necessarily tainted by association.

What repulses me about the Vishnans is that they view us as tools and have interfered without permission. If the Vishnans were truly benevolent and established contact openly to offer to teach us about their values/goals/technology I'd be much more open to the idea. However they don't respect our free will and twist an entire culture to meet their unknown ends.

As it stands I don't trust the GTVA or UEF governments, but I still agree with many of the ideals that the UEF apparently holds dear, even if I don't agree with how those ideals may have come about.

[crizza]

Maybe I'm not fit to say this, 'cause I don't have finished the campaign yet, but reading this discussion I come to the conclusion that Sam isn't trustworthy...
Why should the Zods ask the Shivans to slaughter humanity?
Are they becoming juniorpartner of the shivans or what?

[Gray113]

Those of you who say that the elders are being controlled and engineered buy the Vishnans may indeed be right however this ignores the fact that the elders also left themselves an insurance policy in the form of the Fedayeen and Cassandra. This shows that some of them are not fully following the Vishnan's teachings by safeguarding the federation in the hands of killers and psychopaths. Then there is also the secret project.... That seems to me that the Shivans think this can be a weapon to use not only against the GTVA but also the Vishnans themselves.

Not the actions of indoctrinated minions methinks

[manwiththemachinegun]

I certainly hope they would consider that possibility. Without waxing too philosophical (Freespace is for the most part a rather simple story of survival against all odds), I would say the main issue is this.

The Shivans and Vishnans, for reasons unknown, have determined that any species that waging internal conflict is not worthy of survival. They have straight-up executed countless other races, with the Vishnans' permission. The Ancients perhaps, got what they deserved. From a human perspective though, their judgement of humanity is premature. We never saw the atrocities of the Vasudan-Terran war, a war which began primarily as a result of miscommunication. There's no reason to assume that war would have ended in genocide of either party. The Shivans simply assumed it would, and acted.

Now we are told humanity is being judged, the Vishnans have a secret agenda, so do the Shivans, we know it relates to how they command and control the universe in the aftermath of something called the Dawn War. We know the GTVA is horrified by Vishnan social engineering and the specter of Shivan apocalypse, something the UEF has not witnessed personally. We know the UEF is attempting to, in essence, plea bargain with these powers by convincing them that human nature can change in a fashion that can please THEM. They may have hidden contingencies, but we have not seen them yet.

The fun, for me, is discovering what these powers' shatterpoints are. What would convince them to back off? For all their godlike power, they are not gods. They do not have perfect information, and we see from them shades of discontent and bickering over how the universe should be run. They're unstable because their grand scheme is apparently collapsing, and THAT is the most dangerous thing for humans and Vasudans I believe.

The trick is how to give the player some agency in how to deal with these two colossal entities within the confines of a space sim game.

And how do you deal with the two biggest kids on the block pushing and shoving if you're two tribes of ants?

And maybe deep down, I'm still looking forward to blowing up that damn SSJ Dante.

[Phantom Hoover]

can we maybe not get bogged down in duelling analogies here

[manwiththemachinegun]

It's not being bogged down if that's what the story's chosen metaphor is. Ants and bacteria attempting to deal with human sized beings comparatively speaking. That's BP's metaphor, not mine. Freespace has always explored and played with that sense of accomplishment... only to see it demolished almost every time by the capacity of the Shivans. Victory is measured in survival, not destruction of the enemy.

Which, if any, is worthy of survival? The GTVA or UEF? Bosch is convinced only one can. The Shivans and Vishnans have their own plans in motion, and they don't appear to be particularly benevolent ones.