[SypheDMar]

Exactly. The point of having a slow, deliberately expensive and wasteful process for the capital punishment is to ensure that the person who is to be executed truly guilty. If being efficient in executing people is a good thing, then I'm glad that many states in the U.S. don't have a death penalty.

And studies have shown that capital punishment is an ineffective deterrent. Otherwise, nobody would be committing crimes in pre-20th century Britain, Texas, or China.

[Hades]

I think the moral double standard of "He did this/killed this person/whatever, therefor it is totally fine for us to kill him too because murder is bad" kind of doesn't jive well with me, either.

[Phantom Hoover]

Well, I'd say it's a pretty effective deterrent once it's applied. I didn't heard to anybody doing whatever they did again. The fact that U.S. can't even execute a convict without wasting taxpayers money is another thing, but it's not like prison maintenance is cheap, either. Tropico 4 illustrates this well. You can build and maintain a prison, hire policemen and put criminals there for 1000$ each. Or you could have them shot for 500$ and give an unrelated, pompous speech to reduce the respect penalty. The choice is rather obvious.
Oh, and excuse my grim attempts at humor, my government is annoying me again.

it's nice to know that your time playing tropico 4 gave you such insight into the broader social effects of the death penalty

Oh and by the way, the reason the death penalty is so expensive in the US is primarily because there are a lot of expensive legal measures to prevent miscarriages of justice. I guess you'd prefer to execute a few innocents if it cut down on prison costs, though.

[MP-Ryan]

Well, I'd say it's a pretty effective deterrent once it's applied. I didn't heard to anybody doing whatever they did again. The fact that U.S. can't even execute a convict without wasting taxpayers money is another thing, but it's not like prison maintenance is cheap, either. Tropico 4 illustrates this well. You can build and maintain a prison, hire policemen and put criminals there for 1000$ each. Or you could have them shot for 500$ and give an unrelated, pompous speech to reduce the respect penalty. The choice is rather obvious.

Ah, the death penalty.

Couple things:
1.  The general deterrence (effect a sentence has on others) of the death penalty is very low.  Jurisdictions which have and use the death penalty have higher violent crime and homicide rates than jurisdictions without.  Go figure.
2.  Specific deterrence of the death penalty (effect on that individual) is actually not that high either - deterrence is a function of how swift and certain justice is.  The chances of actually being caught and convicted of a death penalty offence are moderate, the the chances of it being swiftly carried out are extremely low.  It can take decades to exhaust the appeals process.
3.  Cost.  It costs more to put a prisoner to death in democracies than it does to keep them in prison for life.
4.  What about wrongful convictions (which are a shocking proportion of convictions, even in the US/Canada/Britain).

The cheapest solution to violent crime is prevention.  Oddly enough, there are a ton of sociological studies out that that show the best way to prevent crime is to provide people with access to abortion* (fun study, that one), basic living essentials, access to health care, a safe living environment (meaning early intervention in domestic abuse/violence), a safe learning environment (safe schools / bullying consequences), and most of all, access and encouragement to pursue education.  It is actually cheaper to do all of that than build more prisons, hire more police, and execute more criminals.

[Nuke]

shoot em all and let the flying spaghetti monster sort em out!

im glad america has a rape-engine prison system. because if it didnt then child molesters and rapists wouldn't get the ass whooping that they deserve.

[redsniper]

But if we reduce the crime rates and conviction rates, all those privately run prisons won't have any repeat business! All those poor prison workers will be unemployed! This is just what I'd expect from all you soft-on-crime bleeding heart liberal "intellectual" types. Hmph!

[Dragon]

The cheapest solution to violent crime is prevention.  Oddly enough, there are a ton of sociological studies out that that show the best way to prevent crime is to provide people with access to abortion* (fun study, that one), basic living essentials, access to health care, a safe living environment (meaning early intervention in domestic abuse/violence), a safe learning environment (safe schools / bullying consequences), and most of all, access and encouragement to pursue education.  It is actually cheaper to do all of that than build more prisons, hire more police, and execute more criminals.

Indeed. Now try to get politicians to efficiently implement that. The best way of dealing with crime would be to ensure people aren't inclined to go into crime in first place. A person who always could buy everything necessary, was raised with respect to law and order, was educated in a good, safe school and was a wanted child of loving parents (you mentioned access to abortion, it's a logical correlation if you think about it. There's a chance that a mother forced to give birth and raise a child will hate it, or that it'll be treated as "unwanted" in some other way. It doesn't always happen, but has disastrous consequences when it does. Orphanages have their own problems.) has very little chance of getting in conflict with the law. The few cases that do usually could be prevented with psychiatric treatment. On the other hand, ensuring everybody has such upbringing is a titanic task. Also, it can't really be accomplished by government alone, many of those require a good income, which means one or both parents are employed in a decent job.

it's nice to know that your time playing tropico 4 gave you such insight into the broader social effects of the death penalty

Oh and by the way, the reason the death penalty is so expensive in the US is primarily because there are a lot of expensive legal measures to prevent miscarriages of justice. I guess you'd prefer to execute a few innocents if it cut down on prison costs, though.

Note, this line about Tropico was meant as a joke, as was the entire game, for that matter. It is, of course, a good thing death penalty isn't used recklessly. One thing though. Shouldn't similar measures be applied to ensure a person isn't wrongfully imprisoned? It's a stigma for the entire life, and being stuck with criminals could lead to becoming like them. While child molesters and rapists get what they deserve in there, putting an innocent person in there could destroy their life for good. It might be worth the expense to ensure this doesn't happen. (well, I guess I strayed from the topic a bit)
Also, I'd say death penalty costs could be greatly reduced in case a criminal had been caught red-handed. There are situations where there's no discussing what happened and who's guilty, because the criminal had been caught in the act. I think that in such case, some procedures could be greatly simplified.

[Al-Rik]

To all those claiming we should have draconian measures, I just have one sentence to say.

What about those wrongly imprisoned?

To be cynic:
They help to maintain a good sense of fear in the population.
Fear that is needed to keep the law respected.

[Nuke]

But if we reduce the crime rates and conviction rates, all those privately run prisons won't have any repeat business! All those poor prison workers will be unemployed! This is just what I'd expect from all you soft-on-crime bleeding heart liberal "intellectual" types. Hmph!

i can agree that the big part of the problem in the us is we lock up a lot of people for stupid ****. we throw saturday night dope smokers, need to feed my kids hookers and first offense shoplifters in with gang members, rapists, murderers, etc for long periods of time and expect them to come out as better people than when they went in. which is retarded. its not doing anything for crime rates, but it sure as hell is improving gang memebership rates. so kill the obvious bad ones, lock up the ones that are need to be contained, and 50 lashes to the junkies, whores, and petty thieves. and an occasional public impalement of the worst of the worst.

[Polpolion]

To all those claiming we should have draconian measures, I just have one sentence to say.

What about those wrongly imprisoned?

To be cynic:
They help to maintain a good sense of fear in the population.
Fear that is needed to keep the law respected.

I don't respect any authority figure that would wrongly imprison people and not care. I don't think many people would.

[newman]

To be cynic:
They help to maintain a good sense of fear in the population.
Fear that is needed to keep the law respected.

Perhaps you should get wrongfully convicted of murder one, then? I'm sure you'd be proud to do your bit for maintaining fear of the law. We need to keep fear alive, and you get that - Stewart and Colbert would be proud

[Ghostavo]

The penal system should mainly be about rehabilitation, not just slapping a punishment.

The fact that the US has so many punitive measures is... weird.

[MP-Ryan]

The penal system should mainly be about rehabilitation, not just slapping a punishment.

The fact that the US has so many punitive measures is... weird.

Except that doesn't work.  In fact, the only rehabilitative measure in justice systems that has shown any promise of reducing recidivism rates is 'restorative justice,' also called 'healing circles,' predominantly used in the cases of aboriginal/native/youth offenders in Canada, Australia, and New Zealand.  And it only works for some crimes, typically those in which there is a victim or victim's family left to participate in the process.

The 1970s-style rehabilitative feel-good model that was temporarily adopted (and was simultaneously responsible for closing a large number of psychiatric facilities) didn't work, still doesn't work, and should frankly be abolished.  Programming has to be meaningful, voluntary (not incentive-based), and progress-driven, and to date the rehabilitation model hasn't been any of these things.  The biggest problem is that it assumes that all people have the fundamental drive to function within society, and there is a percentage (small, mind you) of people to whom this philosophy does not apply (traditionally called sociopaths, now more frequently referred to as ASPD because it's a better descriptor and encompasses more than just sociopaths).

Most studies are pretty clear that the best way of dealing out justice is to keep people out of the system in the first place, ensure those who do end up in contact with the system have a difficult but meaningful way out, and lock the rest up and throw away the key because it doesn't matter what you do, they will continue to break the law until they are no longer physically/mentally able to do so.

[Ghostavo]

Can you provide any study not behind some paywall? I'd be happy to read it since I vaguely recall some comparisons made between the US and Norway, I think, that suggested that rehabilitation would be the way to go.

For instance, I keep hearing about ridiculous measures being put forward towards people registered as sex offenders, time and time again, making anyone in one of those lists have a virtual life sentence.

P.S.
Here's an interesting article about rehabilitation from the American Psychological Association.

[Flipside]

The problem is that, once someone sets foot on the road of crime, society is arranged in such a way as to continue pushing them down that road. Having a criminal record is considered pretty much a block to getting any responsible job, and whilst, obviously, there are some crimes (mostly violent ones) that this makes sense with, being caught with a bag of weed when you are 17 should not destroy the next 40+ years of your life. The purpose of punishment is to pay a 'debt' to society, which is why I'm not against Hard Labo(u)r in certain cases, but once that debt is paid, the retaining of that criminal record and the need to announce it to a prospective employer, should really be reviewed with an eye towards encouraging small-time offenders not to become big time ones.

[MP-Ryan]

Can you provide any study not behind some paywall? I'd be happy to read it since I vaguely recall some comparisons made between the US and Norway, I think, that suggested that rehabilitation would be the way to go.

Let's be clear, the US system is NOT the way to go, but neither is a traditional rehabilitation approach.  And I'm afraid that pretty much all the major sociological journals are pay-walled, which is an absolute shame.  I've lost access to them myself as my university ID expired =\

[karajorma]

Indeed. Now try to get politicians to efficiently implement that.

You do realise that one of the biggest blocks is people like yourself who want to punish criminals.

The most important thing is not punishment, it's making certain they don't do it again. Punishment is secondary.

Yes the death penalty or castration or any of the frankly medieval methods you'd suggest would prevent them committing a second offence, but then we come straight back to the issue of the wrongly accused.

Shouldn't similar measures be applied to ensure a person isn't wrongfully imprisoned?

They are applied. But in the case of the death penalty there is a certain urgency that isn't present otherwise. Imagine the case of two people innocently convicted. One got the death penalty and will be executed in 6 months, the other didn't. If you're a lawyer willing to take either case, all other things being equal, which one would you choose?

[NGTM-1R]

The death penalty case, because it looks better on your resume. And I mean that in all seriousness.

[Luis Dias]

That's very serious (Shirley yeah yeah), but also very cynical.

[karajorma]

The death penalty case, because it looks better on your resume. And I mean that in all seriousness.

Yeah, that too.

Doesn't hurt that in the death penalty case he'll probably have had several appeals with other lawyers who failed to get him pardoned/exonerated either.