[Phantom Hoover]

This came up in the Fedayeen/Medjai alliance thread and I decided it had been derailed enough already. It's certainly true that we've never seen any ships surviving a Sathanas shockjump; but is it really impossible? For one thing, what if you built a giant frame of mostly-empty space and distributed some redundant subsystems with plenty of space between them so the comparatively-narrow BFRed mostly just goes through empty space?

Obviously this design has countless practical problems, but at this stage I'm proposing it just as a counterexample.

[Scotty]

The Phoenicia is scripted to survive the first salvo from the SJ Sathanas.  The reason it doesn't sometimes is because the combination of four BFReds can skip it right past its guardian-threshold (4, if I remember correctly) and down to zero.

Whether a ship can survive a quartet of BFReds has very little to do with the ship in question, and everything to do with the story.  The Phoenicia can survive (or not), just like any other ship of her class, and any other ship of any other destroyer class.

I'd say that a corvette of any kind surviving a Sathanas salvo at just short of impossible, but destroyers have (canonically) survived.

[Legate Damar]

Beam target jamming?

[Droid803]

Assuming beam jamming even works against Shivans. Which implies that shivan beams work in a similar way to Terran/Vasudan beams... which can be called into question (tech description of BFRed saying how it violates known physics, dumping heat into subspace...)

[Phantom Hoover]

My interpretation of beam canon is that the general physical principles and mode of operation are the same for Shivan and GTVA beams -- the latter were engineered from scans of the former, after all. This means that the magnetic bottle fluff applies to Shivan beams as well, so the jamming methods that involve actively disrupting the beam's containment fields could be applied to them. The BFRed's heatsink baffles Allied engineers because they don't know how it stays cool, not because its entire mode of operation is a mystery. That said, I strongly doubt the GTVA knows anything about Shivan targeting, so target jamming is probably futile.

[Aesaar]

While we're on the subject of beam jamming: depending on how BP canon Vassago's Dirge is, we might see Shivan beam jamming.  In VD, the Vassago screwed up the Carthage Mjolnir array TAG targeting.  The range might have had something to do with that, but it's still a scary thought.

[Axem]

The Vassago's "beam jamming" was actually bending space to cause the beams to miss (since I can't actually bend beams in FS, it was just a miss). However its utility may not be that great since over a distance of 50km, the beams were only deflected by a few hundred meters. But who knows!

[Phantom Hoover]

Well in terms of actual gravitational forces, being able to skew a beam of relativistic plasma by a good part of a degree is absolutely massive: the Vassago would've been able to rip any GTVA destroyer to shreds with tidal forces alone.

[NGTM-1R]

That said, I strongly doubt the GTVA knows anything about Shivan targeting, so target jamming is probably futile.

The GTVA has repeatedly captured Shivan craft complete with targeting system, so they know something on the subject; and just the fact your fighter can detect that you're being targeted by Shivan craft in the game argues they know enough to make an effective attempt at jamming.

[Phantom Hoover]

Oh, that's a fair point. That certainly leaves it as a possibility.

[Aesaar]

The Vassago's "beam jamming" was actually bending space to cause the beams to miss (since I can't actually bend beams in FS, it was just a miss). However its utility may not be that great since over a distance of 50km, the beams were only deflected by a few hundred meters. But who knows!

That just makes it scarier.  Like you said, the range might have had something to do with its effectiveness in the mission, but even at short range, it could impact accuracy enough to make knocking out specific subsystems (like beam cannons) almost impossible.

[Axem]

I thought of it more as a passive shell, not a directed gravitational lens or anything. Something that can cause long range fire to miss (maybe from planets or situations like the one the Vassago was in) but not enough to make a difference in short range combat. Different campaign, different mechanics anyway.

[-Norbert-]

That said, I strongly doubt the GTVA knows anything about Shivan targeting, so target jamming is probably futile.

The GTVA has repeatedly captured Shivan craft complete with targeting system, so they know something on the subject; and just the fact your fighter can detect that you're being targeted by Shivan craft in the game argues they know enough to make an effective attempt at jamming.

On the other hand the GTVA captured only smaller ships, fighters, freighters and one confirmed cruiser (the Taranis), which apart from being a great war era ship, was either retaken or destroyed by the Lucifer pretty quickly.
So while the GTVA might know a lot about a Shivan fighter's targeting array, it's far from sure that the big ships would use the same stuff for their weapons.
I mean just the sensor subsystem of a destroyer is bigger than most fighters and bombers. Surely they have more functions than a fighter sensor system, most likely integrating ECCM functions among other things.

[Capt_Thunder]

If it is possible. Plasma + lasers = fusion, producing unstable magnetic fields. Can that help?
But then can you shoot your own torpedo in FS2?
One may need two ships to get the right angles.

[NGTM-1R]

So while the GTVA might know a lot about a Shivan fighter's targeting array, it's far from sure that the big ships would use the same stuff for their weapons.

Why would they use a different sort of sensor at the capital ship level? Unless you can answer that question coherently (and I doubt you can, short of conspiracy theory that the Shivans anticipated their craft being captured and ignored the logistics advantages of uniform systems), the bottom line is that the GTVA still knows enough to white-noise the hell out of them.

Also, your fighter can still detect when you're being targeted and fired on by Shivan capital craft, which provides the same information necessary to white-noise their systems; being able to detect means monitoring the right frequencies. So even if you conspiracy-theory the first argument, you're still stuck with the second by merit of the ingame behavior. The GTVA knows enough to beat Shivan targeting with white noise jamming, if they can find the necessary power.

[headdie]

So while the GTVA might know a lot about a Shivan fighter's targeting array, it's far from sure that the big ships would use the same stuff for their weapons.

Why would they use a different sort of sensor at the capital ship level? Unless you can answer that question coherently (and I doubt you can, short of conspiracy theory that the Shivans anticipated their craft being captured and ignored the logistics advantages of uniform systems), the bottom line is that the GTVA still knows enough to white-noise the hell out of them.

Also, your fighter can still detect when you're being targeted and fired on by Shivan capital craft, which provides the same information necessary to white-noise their systems; being able to detect means monitoring the right frequencies. So even if you conspiracy-theory the first argument, you're still stuck with the second by merit of the ingame behavior. The GTVA knows enough to beat Shivan targeting with white noise jamming, if they can find the necessary power.

while IRL aircraft and warships both use radar for targeting you can bet that they use different pulse frequencies and signal filters, in short a jammer that works on fighters will probably not work on warships without significant reconfiguration.

also IRL we do use different targeting systems depending on application, eg thermal "heat seeking", radar, Image recognition (phoenix long range missile iirc), laser guided, GPS guided, fly by wire.  also guidance such as radar and sonar are increasingly fitted with both active and passive seekers.

[The E]

That's not the point. The point is, whatever the Shivans are using, it is recognizable as such to GTVA sensor systems. Now, that does not necessarily mean that they're incapable of pulling out another sudden advance (They're Shivans, after all, that's what they do!), but it also means that the GTVA is not entirely helpless or clueless in dealing with Shivan systems.

The big question is, "Do UEF Jamming techniques work against Shivans", to which the answer must be "We don't know, but we're reasonably certain that they will".

[NGTM-1R]

all this stuff doesn't matter

Your fighter is capable of detecting Shivan craft both fighter and capital that are actively targeting and firing at you specifically.

The only way this is possible in some of the situations it can happen in is by recognizing what Shivans use for fire control systems is targeting you specifically, which implies not only do they know what frequencies Shivans use for it but also recognize whatever distinguishing characteristics differentiate search, lock, and active fire-direction (pulse rate or whatever). This is all the knowledge necessary to successfully jam them with both white noise and deceptive systems. Toss in an IR-frequency laser to blind the most likely passive method of fire control and you're ready to rock.

[-Norbert-]

So while the GTVA might know a lot about a Shivan fighter's targeting array, it's far from sure that the big ships would use the same stuff for their weapons.

Why would they use a different sort of sensor at the capital ship level? Unless you can answer that question coherently (and I doubt you can, short of conspiracy theory that the Shivans anticipated their craft being captured and ignored the logistics advantages of uniform systems), the bottom line is that the GTVA still knows enough to white-noise the hell out of them.

I never said anything about a different base technology, but obviously a capship packs more and much bigger sensors than a fighter. Since it would be odd to build something far bigger than necessary, it's only logical to assume that capship sensors are bigger, because they pack additional features and power.
The additional power alone makes them harder to jam and the additional features might include ECCM equipment, wider range of frequencies and who knows what else.
And just being able to detect a sensor sweep that is directed directly at you, doesn't mean you are automatically able to jam it.

Beside that, the Shivans have shown to be very adaptable. Even if the GTVA or UEF would succeed in jamming a Shivan ship in any way, I wouldn't expect it to last long (neither in the actual engagement, nor in the war).

All that combined means there are plenty of non-conspiracy reasons to justify why GTVA and UEF ships can't jam Shivan capital ships (or be less effective at it than against other Human ships) if the storywriters want to have it that way.

[Capt_Thunder]

"Do UEF Jamming techniques work against Shivans?" That might the game less interesting. It will also be the end of them, as they will be hunted to extinction by the GTVA when they get hold of that technology.
Any Sensor tech. either is passive and receives  the effect of changes in their environment. Or is active and emits something that will be altered by the environment and receive the change. So if you can figure what there toying about with you can develop a counter. But then they will counter and then you have to counter and it get ever increasingly complex. But this is what makes the game interesting.