[stinkyFeet]

Did Israel just pay Danegeld? Doesn't this mean the threat of violence is legitimate way to get what you want?

Edit:I know I'm talking out of my butt.

[MP-Ryan]

The first paragraph of this article is an excellent reason why Hamas deserves the universal condemnation of the free world:

A car drags the body of an executed “collaborator” through Gaza City, streets away from where a team of foreign dignitaries come to show solidarity with Gazans under Israeli fire.

[Aardwolf]

Not sure if you (or anyone else here) is still trying to imply that there's something wrong with saying this, but:

1. **** Hamas
2. **** Israel

[Dragon]

The first paragraph of this article is an excellent reason why Hamas deserves the universal condemnation of the free world:

A car drags the body of an executed “collaborator” through Gaza City, streets away from where a team of foreign dignitaries come to show solidarity with Gazans under Israeli fire.

Note, they're democratically elected. Which means it's also the fault of people who elected them. What did they expect when they voted to terrorists? Hamas was always the kind of party which would do that to it's own people.

[Aardwolf]

Democratic election does not necessarily mean they won legitimately, and even if they did, that does not mean that 100% of the population endorsed them.

[Polpolion]

Is it possible that Hamas was actually the least of multiple evils in the election, too?

[NGTM-1R]

Is it possible that Hamas was actually the least of multiple evils in the election, too?

Fatah was also up for election (hence why there's only the Gaza front currently since Fatah isn't on board with Hamas). People didn't vote for the lesser evil, they voted their anger.

[Sandwich]

The Hamas - Fatah (Palestinian Authority proxies IIRC) election scenario was an interesting one. The PA was screwing the Palestinians over big time - diverting international aid funds to build mansions, etc - the kind of corrupt behavior that gets you tossed out of office. The Hamas, meantime, was being both a terrorist organization to the Israelis, and a perverted sort of humanitarian aid organization to the Palestinians oppressed by the PA - monetarily rewarding families of suicide bombers, etc. Ergo, they won in Gaza, and immediately began battling it out with Fatah in the streets. They won, and here we are today.

Note that I may have some of the details wrong, but the general gist I believe is still intact, that Hamas won by appearing to do more immediate good to the Palestinians, while screwing them over in the longer run due to their terrorist activities.


As for the cease-fire, 12 rockets have been fired at Israel in the 90 minutes since it went into effect. Israeli sources have stated ahead of time that they expected a "short tail" of dwindling rocket fire over a day or so, probably due to the uncoordinated nature of the Hamas cells now that they've had their existing leadership largely wiped out.

[Grizzly]

The first paragraph of this article is an excellent reason why Hamas deserves the universal condemnation of the free world.

Aren't they already getting the universal condemnation of the free world? You are completely right in that they deserve it, but that was rather obvious from the start.

As for the cease-fire, 12 rockets have been fired at Israel in the 90 minutes since it went into effect. Israeli sources have stated ahead of time that they expected a "short tail" of dwindling rocket fire over a day or so, probably due to the uncoordinated nature of the Hamas cells now that they've had their existing leadership largely wiped out.

Isn't there another group in Gaza, called the Islamitic Jihad of Palestina or something? It seems logical that they would continue firing, as the peace treaty was with Hamas and Hamas only AFAIK.

[MP-Ryan]

Isn't there another group in Gaza, called the Islamitic Jihad of Palestina or something? It seems logical that they would continue firing, as the peace treaty was with Hamas and Hamas only AFAIK.

Islamic Jihad, and they aren't suicidal enough to break a ceasefire signed by Hamas.

[Dragon]

I guess Hamas batteries just didn't got the news about ceasefire yet. I'm not sure if they have any sort of comms short of whoever's in charge driving to them and telling them to stop shooting.

[headdie]

thing is my understanding is that Hamas is more like a resistance group than a modern military, its less about how the orders are given and more about who is giving them and with several leaders targeted by Israel some killed there will probably be cells isolated from the centeral leaders because the person/people they know to be the ones giving them their instructions are dead or in a hospital thus breaking both chain of command and lines of communications.

[Dragon]

Well, considering even the Islamic Jihad seem to mind the ceasefire, I'd say that there isn't going to be much splintering inside Hamas on the issue. The worst extremists might not like it, but I guess that Hamas leadership is the leadership because they have the biggest guns, so any attempts to splinter will soon have rockets falling on them, among other unpleasantries. So I think it's just a matter of them being told to stop shooting by somebody who'd definitely "the boss", which means said boss would need to do some driving around before shooting stops. Hamas doesn't seem to have a strict CoC like modern militaries do.

[Flipside]

As I've said before about this situation, there's a certain amount of political Jiggery-Pokery going on here. Hamas may be the ruling body of the area, and the voice of it, but they only have limited control over those holding the rockets etc. However, politically, it's better to say 'Yes, we are in charge of what's happening' than admitting that there are nutters running round your country with rocket launchers and you don't have a clue how to stop them without being accused of being 'pro-Israeli' or the like, a badge Hamas most certainly don't wish to wear.

So whilst Hamas has agreed to the ceasefire, I sadly suspect that there will be at least a few cells that will decide that Hamas are 'wrong' and will continue firing. I just hope the actions of those few don't lead to a re-escalation of the problem as they hope it will.

[Turambar]

If the Russians had invaded California, and Washington DC said to stop shooting, do you think all the people in California would stop shooting?

[Mongoose]

So are you proposing that Israel has performed any invading with regards to Gaza, at least in the current sense?  Because otherwise that analogy falls apart at the outset.

[Turambar]

Considering how there wasn't an israel until the British and the UN said so, I'd say that analogy works just fine.  Do you think the parents of the children in California would teach their kids that Russia deserved to occupy their land?

[NGTM-1R]

Considering how there wasn't an israel until the British and the UN said so, I'd say that analogy works just fine.  Do you think the parents of the children in California would teach their kids that Russia deserved to occupy their land?

Interesting history. (Also wrong; Stalin was a major force behind it right up until they didn't buy Russian, something that most of Israel's neighbors were quick to forget. The Brits just wanted out since terrorism was a serious issue then.)

[Mongoose]

Considering how there wasn't an israel until the British and the UN said so, I'd say that analogy works just fine.  Do you think the parents of the children in California would teach their kids that Russia deserved to occupy their land?

The particular wisdom of how the UN handled things in 1947-48 doesn't have much to do with the current conflict, other than being held up as a strawman.  Last time I checked, Hamas continuing its rocket barrage of civilian targets is what prompted Israel to take military action here in the first place.

[Sandwich]

Considering how there wasn't an israel until the British and the UN said so, I'd say that analogy works just fine.

I like how people use history to base their arguments upon, but only go so far back in history as is convenient. And by like I mean the kind of like.

EDIT: Anyway, due to the aforementioned cease-fire, I'm being called back for a couple of days to help return the wartime equipment to storage. See y'all in a few - don't go all uncivil without me.