[Scotty]

The problem with the whole issue though is that both sides look at the history as a justification for the ****ty things they're doing now.

I'm pretty sure that, of the ****ty things happening right about now in Israel and Palestine, one side's justification is history, and the other's is "We're getting shot at right now."

[jr2]

Oddly enough, the Nuke is a strange weapon as in it encourages the existence kind of people that would be smart enough to oppose it. In order to have an infrastructure that supports nuclear power or weapons, you need people who are well educated and imaginative.

Problem is they can be purchased / assembled by those who aren't.

[Klaustrophobia]

i'd say the problem is more that the smart ones who build/maintain them are not the ones making the decisions about their use.

[Flipside]

Yup, that's the danger of just giving 'stuff' when what Palestine needs is the infrastructure to make its own stuff. Nuclear devices are probably a bit of an extreme example, to be honest, but generally a country that develops its own technology places extra weight in the hands of those who do that developing.

[karajorma]

The problem with the whole issue though is that both sides look at the history as a justification for the ****ty things they're doing now.

I'm pretty sure that, of the ****ty things happening right about now in Israel and Palestine, one side's justification is history, and the other's is "We're getting shot at right now."

I'd suggest you talk to Sandwich some more then. Or look up some of his past comments on the issue.

Things are not as black and white as you like to claim.

[Scotty]

I don't believe I've ever claimed that there is a black and a white in this situation.  However, there are very clearly two shades of grey, and one is much darker than the other.

In the broadest sense, it's two sides of an argument where one side is screaming "Stop existing!" and the other shouting "No!".  It baffles me how anyone can condemn the side saying "no" because the side calling for the total destruction of the other is deliberately trying to run up civilian casualties to use as PR ammo.

[karajorma]

If you want to look at it that way. Or you could look at it as a completely oppressed, downtrodden group of people striking back at the people who keep them downtrodden. That's as stupidly simplistic as the view you just stated.

The truth is somewhere in the middle. Choosing sides simply makes it seem like you're blind to one side or the other. I assure you if someone was espousing the Palestinian side I'd be spending just as much effort pointing out what a shower of bastards Hamas are. But then that is the issue, on one side we have a bunch of people who everyone knows are evil ****ers. No one tries to defend them.
 
But bizarrely no one wants to realise that the other side are also in the wrong about a great many things too. There are lot of reasons why Hamas can't just stop firing rockets. Acting like that is a practical solution is condescending and staggeringly naive.

[Klaustrophobia]

i fail to see how launching rockets at civilians is accomplishing ANYTHING positive, unless you count the fact they get to play PR with the airstrikes it attracts.  if that makes me naive, so be it.

[karajorma]

I don't think it achieves anything either. I wish Hamas would try non-violent resistance instead. What makes people naive though is expecting them to and saying that since they won't, it doesn't matter how many Palestinian civilians die as a result.

Funny how many people think the conflict could be ended by Hamas stopping firing rockets. Does anyone honestly think that's going to happen?

[Scotty]

As has been repeatedly stated above, Hamas can't stop firing rockets for any real amount of time because firing rockets is what keeps Hamas in power.  They must try to destroy Israel or they have no reason to exist by their own admission.  Hamas can't be non-violent without ceasing to exit.

That kind of circumstance doesn't leave much wiggle room.

[karajorma]

That's kinda my point.

In which case washing your hands of the deaths of Palestinian civilians seems somewhat callous, neh?  They're trapped with a very violent government who thinks nothing of using them as human shields and PR martyrs. And yet the response of many on this forum is to say "Well Israel is justified in killing them since they're the collateral damage in keeping Israeli citizens safe"

And if you really, honestly can't see why that is such a ****ty thing to say, I don't really see much point in continuing. 

[Scotty]

The Isreali government's choice is a very simple one.

1) Respond to the rocket strikes by taking out the rocket launch sites.
2) Respond to the rocket strikes by doing nothing.

One of the government's, any government's, most important duties is to protect its citizens.  If the Israeli government stops taking out the rocket launch sites, it has failed as a governmental entity in the most basic sense, and they know that.  They don't exactly have a legitimate choice in response.

So, really, despite being ****ty, if you honestly can't see why that's the only real course of action, I don't see much point in continuing.

[swashmebuckle]

Any thoughts from the militarily-knowledgable people here on the strategy of hunkering down behind the Iron Dome and waiting for Hamas to collapse? Can Hamas stay in power without provoking Israel into kicking the **** out of Palestine every few years? It seems like Israel is in prime position to deliver a knockout blow here if they can continue to improve that system. I mean sure it's expensive, but if it works, it's the best investment the country has ever made.

Hell, even liberal pussies like me would give them money for that (voluntarily, not through US taxes) if they would stop retaliating. They should do a kickstarter: $10,000,000,000 to improve our missile shield! If our goal is not met, your money will be refunded and the war will continue forever. Now that's a PR campaign.

[Dragon]

I wonder what would happen if anybody actually tried that...
Honestly, sometimes I get the feeling that governments are way behind the times. Online fundraisers make millions, the entire internet has enormous political, economical and social potential which only corporations seem interested in exploiting. Meanwhile, governments only try to censor it and treat it like it was just another form of media, not much different from TV.

[NGTM-1R]

Swash:

Any idiot can tell you that the campaign promise for revenge on Israel/destroy Israel is one that Hamas has no chance of keeping. They were voted for on that platform anyways.

Israel has, one by one, blunted the weapons available to Hamas and the many other organizations that attempt such things. The rockets and Iron Dome are merely the latest manifestation of a pattern of events that stretches back generations. There's no reason to believe that a perfect Iron Dome system would end the violence; they'd keep ineffectively firing rockets while they looked for another way.

Arguably, that's what they've been doing all along. Compared to their previous campaigns with methodologies like suicide bombers, the rocket campaign has lasted a good ten years and been by far the least successful one they've ever set up, with one in one hundred (or less!) launches successfully injuring anyone.

Hamas will keep failing. But as long as they act like they're trying, Hamas will keep existing. Those who back them know full well they can't get results.

[Dragon]

Israel has, one by one, blunted the weapons available to Hamas and the many other organizations that attempt such things. The rockets and Iron Dome are merely the latest manifestation of a pattern of events that stretches back generations. There's no reason to believe that a perfect Iron Dome system would end the violence; they'd keep ineffectively firing rockets while they looked for another way.

I wonder just for how long can they keep it up. Can they actually manufacture usable rockets in Gaza? Considering how many of them Israel blew up, and the number of launchers, I wonder if war of attrition would be a valid strategy for the Israel. I know that Hamas has foreign backers, but Gaza strip is completely surrounded by Israel from the land. An artillery rocket isn't something you can just smuggle under your coat. The only way anybody (my guess is Iran) could supply Hamas would be via sea. I'd say, a perfect Iron Dome coupled with a strict naval blockade would, sooner or later, lead to Hamas running out of things to fire at Israel. A few well executed commando raids could help hasten the process without the usual collateral damage airstrikes cause.

[MP-Ryan]

Israel has, one by one, blunted the weapons available to Hamas and the many other organizations that attempt such things. The rockets and Iron Dome are merely the latest manifestation of a pattern of events that stretches back generations. There's no reason to believe that a perfect Iron Dome system would end the violence; they'd keep ineffectively firing rockets while they looked for another way.

I wonder just for how long can they keep it up. Can they actually manufacture usable rockets in Gaza? Considering how many of them Israel blew up, and the number of launchers, I wonder if war of attrition would be a valid strategy for the Israel. I know that Hamas has foreign backers, but Gaza strip is completely surrounded by Israel from the land. An artillery rocket isn't something you can just smuggle under your coat. The only way anybody (my guess is Iran) could supply Hamas would be via sea. I'd say, a perfect Iron Dome coupled with a strict naval blockade would, sooner or later, lead to Hamas running out of things to fire at Israel. A few well executed commando raids could help hasten the process without the usual collateral damage airstrikes cause.

Hamas is supplied with arms by Iran through Egypt and via sea (despite the blockade).  They aren't running out anytime in the forseeable future.

[Dragon]

Well, the naval blockade is obviously not doing it's job then. Can't their radar cover the whole coast of the Gaza strip? You can't really smuggle rockets in a dinghy either, those smuggling ships should be detectable. As for Egyptian route, there's still a sizable patch of Israeli soil between Egypt and Gaza. I would expect it to be pretty heavily blockaded, I wonder how those smugglers sneak past. AFAIK, to carry a load of artillery rockets you need a pretty big cargo truck, and they aren't easy to hide in aid packages.

[chief1983]

Tunnels?

[Luis Dias]

Yes.