Author Topic: Well, the Iron Dome works...  (Read 31109 times)

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Offline Dragon

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Re: Well, the Iron Dome works...
If a Jew feels Palestinian, nothing stops him/her from voting so.

Actually... that's a life-threatening situation, and is not permitted from the PA's side. IIRC.
Even on the West Bank? I thought this was only Hamas' stance, does Fatah also have a problem with it?
Anyway, this would just make the plebiscite simpler. All Jews to Israel, and Arabs get to choose which country they want to live in.

 

Offline Sandwich

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Re: Well, the Iron Dome works...
If you want America to stop telling you off, stop taking their money.

Did it ever occur to you that perhaps America wants a stable ally in the region?

Even on the West Bank? I thought this was only Hamas' stance, does Fatah also have a problem with it?

As far as I'm aware, it's very much not allowed. Heck, Israelis have literally been slaughtered for taking a wrong turn and ending up in Ramallah (a West Bank city).

Anyway, this would just make the plebiscite simpler. All Jews to Israel, and Arabs get to choose which country they want to live in.

Are you saying the dozens of Arab states in the region aren't enough? That they can overrun Israel demographically as well, while the Jews can only have their half-state? :wtf:
« Last Edit: December 07, 2012, 08:23:25 pm by Sandwich »
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Offline karajorma

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Re: Well, the Iron Dome works...
If you want America to stop telling you off, stop taking their money.

Did it ever occur to you that perhaps America wants a stable ally in the region?

Did it ever occur to you that the entire argument you posted basically consists of "Two wrongs do make a right" The argument that America should stop telling you that you're wrong because they don't tell other countries they don't have as close a tie with that they are wrong is flawed at best.

You take their money, that gives them the right to tell you what to do with it. Don't like it, stop taking it.
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Re: Well, the Iron Dome works...
Also, houses in another country's territory are just as big a violation of the Geneva conventions as rocketing civilians is. And I am quite sure that Israel has signed those Geneva conventions.

 
Re: Well, the Iron Dome works...
If you want America to stop telling you off, stop taking their money.

Did it ever occur to you that perhaps America wants a stable ally in the region?

I'm pretty sure that's exactly what they want.

Which would be why they're telling the ally that they're subsidizing the existence of to take actions conducive to stability.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2012, 07:03:30 am by LordPomposity »

 

Offline Dragon

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Re: Well, the Iron Dome works...
Anyway, this would just make the plebiscite simpler. All Jews to Israel, and Arabs get to choose which country they want to live in.

Are you saying the dozens of Arab states in the region aren't enough? That they can overrun Israel demographically as well, while the Jews can only have their half-state? :wtf:
That's rather thinly veiled racism. Both Arabs and Jews are people. If the "Arab states" don't allow Jews just because they're Jews, then it's a sign of a primitive way of thinking. If an Arabian Muslim feels Israeli, he/she should be allowed to be Israeli without changing religion, regardless of ethnicity. Just don't expect Islam being pandered to as in other Arab states. It should also work the other way, but it seems that Israel's neighbors have yet to grow up to understand this. Throwing Arabs out of Israel because they're Arabs is just as racist as throwing Jews out of a country just because they're Jews. Jews, of all people, should understand this, having been thrown out a lot of countries before. Responding to racism with racism never did any good.

I don't believe Arabian culture could overtake Israeli one. As long as separation of church and state is maintained, Islam and Judaism should be able to coexist in peace. Some won't like it, but if the laws would favor neither, it shouldn't be a problem. I think that Israel ran like a civilized, progressive, secular country is what is needed to bring progress to the region. Also, I don't think there's hope of purging Arabian culture from the region without committing atrocities. It would be much better to give it equal rights to Jewish one. If care would be taken to make sure both cultures are equally treated, I believe both Israeli Jews and Arabs would be happy, and some less extreme Arab states would have an easier time accepting it (of course, extremists would just declare Israeli Muslims "traitors", but that's to be expected with extremists).

 

Offline 666maslo666

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Re: Well, the Iron Dome works...

That's rather thinly veiled racism. Both Arabs and Jews are people. If the "Arab states" don't allow Jews just because they're Jews, then it's a sign of a primitive way of thinking. If an Arabian Muslim feels Israeli, he/she should be allowed to be Israeli without changing religion, regardless of ethnicity.

Is this actualy based on religion? As far as I know, there are plenty of atheist Jews. Isnt it about culture or ethnicity? Because those are valid reasons to discriminate when it comes to citizenship or immigration. Every country has a right to protect its culture and ethnicity.

And anyway, I wouldnt call it racism. Religion is not a race. Just plain old bigotry.
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Offline chief1983

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Re: Well, the Iron Dome works...
 :confused:  How can you be a Jewish atheist?  You can be an Israeli atheist...
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Offline karajorma

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Re: Well, the Iron Dome works...
Jewish refers to both a race and a religion.
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Offline Dragon

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Re: Well, the Iron Dome works...
Is this actualy based on religion? As far as I know, there are plenty of atheist Jews. Isnt it about culture or ethnicity? Because those are valid reasons to discriminate when it comes to citizenship or immigration. Every country has a right to protect its culture and ethnicity.

And anyway, I wouldnt call it racism. Religion is not a race. Just plain old bigotry.
I think we've ran into a miscommunication here. The problem with the term "Jew" is that it refers both to an ethnicity (not a race if we want to get technical, but "racism" is also applied to ethnic hatred) and a religion. So, you can have a Jewish Atheist, or an Arabian Jew. "Israeli" is a nationality, so it doesn't work here. I generally used the former meaning in my previous post (hence, talking about racism and not religious bigotry), but a few times I had to use the latter (generally, when I talk about Jews and Muslims, I mean religion, and when I talk about Jews and Arabs, I mean ethnicity). Often, ethnic Jews are religious Jews, but it's not universally the case. It'd be easier to discuss this issue if the language didn't encourage equating one with the other, and cause confusion if you try not to.

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Well, the Iron Dome works...
That's rather thinly veiled racism.

What the actual ****.

You're talking about separation of church and state and racial equality and crap like that, and Dragon, I hate to say this, but it means you have no presence in this discussion because you have no idea what you're talking about. None of this is present within the context of this discussion. Zero. The PA, Hamas, etc. are all self-identified as the champions of Muslim Arabs. Israel is a self-identified Jewish state. The idea that a majority will not attempt to use its majority to claim special privileges for itself is also laughably false, and as exhibit A I present to you all of human history.

And what is all this "feels" supposed to mean? If I "feel" Mexican today, can I go cross the border and vote there? I'll need to "feel" American again soon though, to vote in my own country. What is this supposed to mean? It's clearly not a "path to citizenship" you're suggesting, because you think the effects should be immediate. It's clearly not based in any kind of rule of law, and if you want to run the area on gusts of emotion, well, see its existing history for how that's worked out?

Would you please refer to some kind of actual reality? Something of relevance to the discussion, showing that you have a basic grounding in the facts of the matter? All you've done so far is betray your biases as someone who grew up in the West.
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Offline Aardwolf

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Re: Well, the Iron Dome works...
Self determination. Falkland islands.

Just because the people we're talking about don't believe in the same principles doesn't mean we should abandon our own.

 

Offline Dragon

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Re: Well, the Iron Dome works...
That's rather thinly veiled racism.
And what is all this "feels" supposed to mean? If I "feel" Mexican today, can I go cross the border and vote there? I'll need to "feel" American again soon though, to vote in my own country. What is this supposed to mean? It's clearly not a "path to citizenship" you're suggesting, because you think the effects should be immediate. It's clearly not based in any kind of rule of law, and if you want to run the area on gusts of emotion, well, see its existing history for how that's worked out?
You didn't understand what I was saying. I was talking about a sense of belonging to one's nation. Is there a nation you can point to and say "I'm one of them"? That's what I meant. If you feel Mexican, then you move to Mexico and stay there. It's not like anything stops you from filling in the paperwork, getting a place to live and a job in there. If the Mexicans don't want you there for some reason or the other (I don't know what's the current immigration policy in there), you can still support them (buy Mexican products, support Mexican immigrants to America) and declare yourself Mexican. You don't need to feel American in order to vote, I would expect a Mexican with a right to vote in America to vote on whoever supports his/her country the most (for example, wants to increase trade, open the border up, increase economic aid, tighten diplomatic bonds, etc.). I talked about "feeling" Jewish or Palestinian in context of people choosing which country they want to live in. It has nothing to do with running an area, just with each individual person deciding who they want to be ruled by. National identity is a perfectly valid reason to prefer one country over another.
Quote
You're talking about separation of church and state and racial equality and crap like that, and Dragon, I hate to say this, but it means you have no presence in this discussion because you have no idea what you're talking about. None of this is present within the context of this discussion. Zero. The PA, Hamas, etc. are all self-identified as the champions of Muslim Arabs. Israel is a self-identified Jewish state. The idea that a majority will not attempt to use its majority to claim special privileges for itself is also laughably false, and as exhibit A I present to you all of human history.
You're talking like this was a good thing. A small hint: it's not. If it happened a lot of times in history, it still doesn't make it right. Yes, the majority will want special rights for itself, but they shouldn't discriminate the minority. The government is supposed to ensure that, and it does, more or less, in most countries.
You're right, neither separation of church and state nor ethnic equality frequently come up in the region we're talking about. Don't you think they should? Saying that people are in some way better/worse just because they're Jews/Arabs is racism. There's a matter of different culture and religion, but shouldn't this be separated from government? There's nothing wrong with Jewish culture dominating in Israel, but Palestinian one should not be forbidden. Likewise, in PA, Jewish culture shouldn't be forbidden even if it doesn't dominate. I'm not denying that there should be two different countries, but I think that it should be up to people in which one they want to live, and not some arbitrary force. And yes, I'm aware it's unlikely to happen anytime soon. I'm talking about what things should be like, not what they are.

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: Well, the Iron Dome works...
Well it's all well and good to come up with a simplistic notion of what should happen in Israel but it's pretty pointless doing it because every single person on the board can do it for themselves.

It's only worth suggesting what should be done if you have something practical to suggest. Otherwise you might as well say that you wish you could wave your magic wand and have the Jews and Palestinians love each other. It's about as likely to happen.
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Offline chief1983

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Re: Well, the Iron Dome works...
Wasn't it just pointed out that Israeli Arabs get along just fine with the Israeli Jews?  I can't imagine there are huge feelings of resentment for discrimination if that's the case.  That's what I thought I was reading at least.
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Offline Dragon

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Re: Well, the Iron Dome works...
Indeed, Israeli Jews who actually deal with Israeli Arabs seem to have no problem with them. There are elements within Israeli government, on the other hand, who definitely wanted Israel to be only for Jews. Some time ago, it seemed like this was the official stance (I'm not sure what's the current status is, this being Jewish politicians we're talking about).

Well it's all well and good to come up with a simplistic notion of what should happen in Israel but it's pretty pointless doing it because every single person on the board can do it for themselves.
Every single but one I replied to, it seems. The post I replied to seemed to imply that the obvious wasn't obvious for me, so I clarified. Same for the rant about national identity, I thought it was pretty clear what I meant by saying somebody "feels" that he/she belongs to a nation, but for at least one person, it wasn't. I posted a practical solution (the plebiscite) earlier on.

 
Re: Well, the Iron Dome works...
It's only worth suggesting what should be done if you have something practical to suggest. Otherwise you might as well say that you wish you could wave your magic wand and have the Jews and Palestinians love each other. It's about as likely to happen.

It did happen.

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: Well, the Iron Dome works...
No, hippies from both side happened. :p

Seriously though, although small scale stuff like that might work, it's doubtful it could be scaled up to the whole of Palestine and Israel.
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Offline Sandwich

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Re: Well, the Iron Dome works...
No, hippies from both side happened. :p

Seriously though, although small scale stuff like that might work, it's doubtful it could be scaled up to the whole of Palestine and Israel.

I cannot stress enough how much an absence of an education of hatred and death helps people get along.
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Offline LordMelvin

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Re: Well, the Iron Dome works...
I'm just posting to remind myself to watch what happens from here because this debate is interesting so far.
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