Author Topic: If anyone has ever wondered why I have such disdain for conspiracy theory...  (Read 12507 times)

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Offline Mikes

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Re: If anyone has ever wondered why I have such disdain for conspiracy theory...
Questioning that the sky is blue while at the same time refusing to look outside actually does kinda make you nuts, no ? ;)

I.e.:  It's the refusal to verify easily verifiable information while pretending some random fantasy is true at the same time.

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: If anyone has ever wondered why I have such disdain for conspiracy theory...
Remember, I didn't say I was outright saying the moon landing was a hoax, but that questioning it doesn't make you nuts. I don't want it to be a hoax. I had a huge passion for astronomy when I was younger. The subject still fascinates me, but not to the extent it did back then.

I must try and watch that to see if it matches up with the one I watched. If it's the same one, that's going to be embarrassing. As soon as I saw the word "Fox", that kind of destroyed it's credibility right there. I know I wasn't familiar personally with some of the scientific concepts at the time, but you trust something on TV to get that stuff right. And I probably didn't have internet (or a PC) back then. I'm sure I would have checked stuff out if I did.

Time to find out if it's the one I watched...

Hey, the show almost convinced me. It does a good job of presenting enough half-truths to sound believable. But when I saw it the first time I noticed that very little time was being given to the other side of the argument so I went online and looked for the counter-evidence. Took me all of 5 minutes to realise what was going on.

Pity the controller of Channel 4 or Channel 5 didn't bother to do that (I forget which one aired this ****). I'm somewhat surprised they didn't get pulled up in front of the ITC for broadcasting something so obviously fraudulent as a factual program.
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Offline Lorric

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Re: If anyone has ever wondered why I have such disdain for conspiracy theory...
Questioning that the sky is blue while at the same time refusing to look outside actually does kinda make you nuts, no ? ;)

I.e.:  It's the refusal to verify easily verifiable information while pretending some random fantasy is true at the same time.

Hey, hey, I couldn't do it at the time.

I can do it now, so I am.

And I'm watching the program, and unfortunately it's looking a lot like the one I remember...

Also, what Karojorma says sounds right. I didn't have any kind of TV beyond the five channels either at the time, so it would have been on one of the main five, thus giving it credibility.

 

Offline watsisname

Re: If anyone has ever wondered why I have such disdain for conspiracy theory...
What is the single most compelling piece of evidence to suggest the moon landings were faked?  Seriously.

I think I have actually seen segments of that program before, and was just dumbfounded.  Most of the arguments are simply appeals to common sense, but one must remember the lunar environment is very different from the Earth environment, so common sense may lead to incorrect assumptions on how things should look.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2013, 10:01:25 am by watsisname »
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Offline Lorric

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Re: If anyone has ever wondered why I have such disdain for conspiracy theory...
Well, here's the program we're all talking about if anyone is interested:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIy8ZqqK5G8

I'm close to 100% confident it's the same one I watched now. Watch it for yourself and remember I didn't have internet access before you judge me if you haven't seen it before. Because I'm watching it right now, and it's still looking convincing to me. I need to find out why the stuff they're coming up with is bogus now.

I'm glad you say it almost convinced you too, Karojorma. Of course, I couldn't go online like you.

 

Offline Dragon

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Re: If anyone has ever wondered why I have such disdain for conspiracy theory...
With Buzz, if you were Buzz, would you punch the guy out? If it was me, and it was true, I'm the man that went to the moon, I'm a hero, I've got nothing to prove. I'm not going to punch the man, I'm just going to laugh in his face. But if I haven't gone to the moon, I've got this guy in my face on TV threatening to expose me, I'm going to shut him up with a punch to the mouth.
Of course I would clobber him. I've trained for years just to get considered for this mission, spent a week in a dinky capsule, endured 4G accelerations, walked in a clunky space suit on the moon, fell from LEO into the ocean and what do I get? Some guy whose biggest aerospace experience is flying in a comfy airliner or (in best case) a TV station helo saying it was all fake. Try walking up to any other Marine going back from deployment and asking him if all the videos of firefights from Afghanistan were faked. See if you can find your teeth afterwards.

  

Offline Lorric

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Re: If anyone has ever wondered why I have such disdain for conspiracy theory...
With Buzz, if you were Buzz, would you punch the guy out? If it was me, and it was true, I'm the man that went to the moon, I'm a hero, I've got nothing to prove. I'm not going to punch the man, I'm just going to laugh in his face. But if I haven't gone to the moon, I've got this guy in my face on TV threatening to expose me, I'm going to shut him up with a punch to the mouth.
Of course I would clobber him. I've trained for years just to get considered for this mission, spent a week in a dinky capsule, endured 4G accelerations, walked in a clunky space suit on the moon, fell from LEO into the ocean and what do I get? Some guy whose biggest aerospace experience is flying in a comfy airliner or (in best case) a TV station helo saying it was all fake. Try walking up to any other Marine going back from deployment and asking him if all the videos of firefights from Afghanistan were faked. See if you can find your teeth afterwards.

No thanks  :D

That's a bit different though, there's no conspiracy theory in place there.

With this moon landing program, with it being on youtube there, we can see in the comments that it's convincing people the moon landing was a hoax, or planting the seeds of doubt in their minds.

It also has a lot of thumbs up vs thumbs down, suggesting people are buying into it.

 

Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: If anyone has ever wondered why I have such disdain for conspiracy theory...
Conspiracy theorists like to talk about the use of critical thinking, but there are some fundamental red flags that come with any conspiracy theory which should automatically put rationalists into cynicism mode.

Critical thinking is the ability to take a conventional fact or idea designed to be accepted at face value, and consider the history, motive, messaging, source, relevance, completeness, factual support or lack thereof, and purpose of that fact/idea.  It's an important skill for scientists in particular (and writers) because it means that you're always verifying information through evidence.

When a conspiracy theorist talks about critical thinking (as karajorma said) they discard evidence which does not support their assertion, and focus on pieces of evidence that might.

Conspiracy theory is not unlike the standard method of legal defense - it's not about one damning fact (because that can be easily verified).  Instead, is focuses on building doubt in a person's mind by presenting small pieces of fact without proper context or fitting them into the larger picture.  Very good conspiracy theorists use misdirection as well, and will often circumvent hard facts they cannot question by presenting pieces of information in the periphery that allude to problems with the larger fact but, when taken in context, are usually meaningless.

The 'best' conspiracy theories take a fact with massive amounts of evidence behind it and tweak it only slightly to suit a political purpose.  Thus they turn what should be a straightforward issue into a matter of perspective, and work to skew the perspective of the individual reviewing the conspiracy theory (which is a fairly simple matter).

Conspiracy theories also have a target audience.  They're not suited to convincing will-informed rationalists or people who will conduct independent verification.  Instead, they target people who often have a fundamental distrust or mistrust of social conventions, norms, people, or governments and a predisposition to belief in unverified truths (schizotypal personality traits - we all have them to a degree).

Quick and dirty ways to identify conspiracy theory:
1.  Claims that there is a hidden truth.
2.  Evidence is presented in a biased way (focus on one side of the argument).
3.  Evidence focuses on a wide variety of small-picture ideas and criticisms and does not include strong core arguments.
4.  Theory starts with the premise that the broadly-accepted story is false.
5.  Theory deconstructs a mainstream theory, rather than building its own interpretation based on evidence.
6.  Theory overlooks or circumvents core facts of a mainstream argument through circling.
7.  Tautological reasoning (circular logic - elements of the theory rely on the truth of other elements they've presented).
8.  Claims that the theorist has identified something no one else has identified.
9.  Political motives that contradict a social or political movement.
10.  Charismatic central figures that repeatedly attempt to convince the viewer of the truth of their claim rather than relying on strength of evidence.

I like conspiracy theory in fiction, I just don't like it in society because it preys on people who are unable or unwilling to research information for themselves but who are predisposed to believing in causes.  They're closely related to cult phenomena - the same sorts of people fall prey to both.
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Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: If anyone has ever wondered why I have such disdain for conspiracy theory...
That's a bit different though, there's no conspiracy theory in place there.

What do you call the claims the Afghan and Iraq wars were all about the US securing themselves an oil supply?  Or the bull**** that the US government was behind the events of September 11, 2001 (demolition of twin towers, etc etc etc)?
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Offline Lorric

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Re: If anyone has ever wondered why I have such disdain for conspiracy theory...
That's a bit different though, there's no conspiracy theory in place there.

What do you call the claims the Afghan and Iraq wars were all about the US securing themselves an oil supply?  Or the bull**** that the US government was behind the events of September 11, 2001 (demolition of twin towers, etc etc etc)?

Dragon said "Try walking up to any other Marine going back from deployment and asking him if all the videos of firefights from Afghanistan were faked."

No one disputes that there is an actual war going on.

I have a friend who believes in that conspiracy. I don't though.

As for the moon, I found this for an argument from the other side:

http://www.badastronomy.com/bad/tv/foxapollo.html#backgrounds2

 

Offline The E

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Re: If anyone has ever wondered why I have such disdain for conspiracy theory...
Relevant videos from Loading Ready Run and Mitchell and Webb.
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I really need lifе to touch me
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Offline Luis Dias

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Re: If anyone has ever wondered why I have such disdain for conspiracy theory...
What do you call the claims the Afghan and Iraq wars were all about the US securing themselves an oil supply?

Perhaps not an "oil supply" directly (but come on, really are you gonna tell me that the Dick Cheneys of that administration didn't profit from the war?), but clearly securing the gulf, where Saddam posed a threat to some 40 million barrels a day of oil to the world's economy. That's no "conspiracy theory", many apologists even admitted as such blatantly.

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: If anyone has ever wondered why I have such disdain for conspiracy theory...
That's a bit different though, there's no conspiracy theory in place there.

What do you call the claims the Afghan and Iraq wars were all about the US securing themselves an oil supply?  Or the bull**** that the US government was behind the events of September 11, 2001 (demolition of twin towers, etc etc etc)?

Dragon said "Try walking up to any other Marine going back from deployment and asking him if all the videos of firefights from Afghanistan were faked."

No one disputes that there is an actual war going on.

I have a friend who believes in that conspiracy. I don't though.

As for the moon, I found this for an argument from the other side:

http://www.badastronomy.com/bad/tv/foxapollo.html#backgrounds2

The Fox debacle was discussed by Phil Plait a long long time ago, and his page debunking all that crap was what made him sufficiently "famous" in the net so he could run his blog. Here's the page putting all those "arguments" to shreds: http://www.badastronomy.com/bad/tv/foxapollo.html

 

Offline Lorric

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Re: If anyone has ever wondered why I have such disdain for conspiracy theory...
That's a bit different though, there's no conspiracy theory in place there.

What do you call the claims the Afghan and Iraq wars were all about the US securing themselves an oil supply?  Or the bull**** that the US government was behind the events of September 11, 2001 (demolition of twin towers, etc etc etc)?

Dragon said "Try walking up to any other Marine going back from deployment and asking him if all the videos of firefights from Afghanistan were faked."

No one disputes that there is an actual war going on.

I have a friend who believes in that conspiracy. I don't though.

As for the moon, I found this for an argument from the other side:

http://www.badastronomy.com/bad/tv/foxapollo.html#backgrounds2

The Fox debacle was discussed by Phil Plait a long long time ago, and his page debunking all that crap was what made him sufficiently "famous" in the net so he could run his blog. Here's the page putting all those "arguments" to shreds: http://www.badastronomy.com/bad/tv/foxapollo.html

It is the same link.

Although better than mine, since mine is in the middle of the page somewhere for where I was looking at the time.  :D

 

Offline Lorric

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Re: If anyone has ever wondered why I have such disdain for conspiracy theory...
What do you call the claims the Afghan and Iraq wars were all about the US securing themselves an oil supply?

Perhaps not an "oil supply" directly (but come on, really are you gonna tell me that the Dick Cheneys of that administration didn't profit from the war?), but clearly securing the gulf, where Saddam posed a threat to some 40 million barrels a day of oil to the world's economy. That's no "conspiracy theory", many apologists even admitted as such blatantly.

I do have serious doubts about the Iraq war. I was never in favour of it, and always thought the evidence for WMDs was flimsy at best. Certainly not enough to go to war over.

 

Offline Dragon

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Re: If anyone has ever wondered why I have such disdain for conspiracy theory...
No one disputes that there is an actual war going on.
I'd imagine that if you looked hard enough, you'd find at least one nut who does. This was just an example though.
What do you call the claims the Afghan and Iraq wars were all about the US securing themselves an oil supply?
Calling spade a spade. That's no conspiracy, I don't think US would intervene if they didn't have anything to gain. I think that's sort of a public secret by now.

 

Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: If anyone has ever wondered why I have such disdain for conspiracy theory...
Calling spade a spade. That's no conspiracy, I don't think US would intervene if they didn't have anything to gain. I think that's sort of a public secret by now.

This is the goofiness I'm talking about.  The United States gets its oil from Canada, Venezuela, Saudi Arabia, and Mexico.  Given the estimated oil reserves in Canada alone, Iraq is irrelevant to the supply of oil to the United States.  The invasion in Iraq was not about the supply of oil to the US.

Where the oil supplies in Iraq are relevant are in strategic terms.  Luis has hit the nail on the head.  Iraq and Iran have been on the US radar for a long-time, and the years following 2001 were a convenient excuse to start some direct intervention on the ground in the region.  Iraq has historically-documented used of so-called weapons of mass destruction (their chemical and biological programs did exist at one time), which was exploited by the US administration at the time as a convenient excuse to invade.  When it became abundantly clear to everyone that it was a flimsy excuse at best, the PR line became "bringing freedom to Iraqis."  Meanwhile, the conspiracy crowd insisted (and still does) that this was about net economic benefit to the US vis-a-vis oil.  I have news for these people:  the military action in Iraq and Afghanistan has been a net economic disaster for the United States.  It hasn't even been a strategic coup, because all it has done is strengthen Iran and splinter existing regional divides further - the law of unintended consequences at work.

So the military engagement in Afghanistan/Iraq had about as much to do with oil as they did with weapons of mass destruction - that is to say, very, very little.
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Offline Lorric

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Re: If anyone has ever wondered why I have such disdain for conspiracy theory...
Calling spade a spade. That's no conspiracy, I don't think US would intervene if they didn't have anything to gain. I think that's sort of a public secret by now.

This is the goofiness I'm talking about.  The United States gets its oil from Canada, Venezuela, Saudi Arabia, and Mexico.  Given the estimated oil reserves in Canada alone, Iraq is irrelevant to the supply of oil to the United States.  The invasion in Iraq was not about the supply of oil to the US.

Where the oil supplies in Iraq are relevant are in strategic terms.  Luis has hit the nail on the head.  Iraq and Iran have been on the US radar for a long-time, and the years following 2001 were a convenient excuse to start some direct intervention on the ground in the region.  Iraq has historically-documented used of so-called weapons of mass destruction (their chemical and biological programs did exist at one time), which was exploited by the US administration at the time as a convenient excuse to invade.  When it became abundantly clear to everyone that it was a flimsy excuse at best, the PR line became "bringing freedom to Iraqis."  Meanwhile, the conspiracy crowd insisted (and still does) that this was about net economic benefit to the US vis-a-vis oil.  I have news for these people:  the military action in Iraq and Afghanistan has been a net economic disaster for the United States.  It hasn't even been a strategic coup, because all it has done is strengthen Iran and splinter existing regional divides further - the law of unintended consequences at work.

So the military engagement in Afghanistan/Iraq had about as much to do with oil as they did with weapons of mass destruction - that is to say, very, very little.

Me, I've never thought it was about the oil. War, unless you're going straight in and straight out, either ransacking the place or imposing tribute on the conquered, is not a profitable business.

But there is some agenda there I feel. What did you mean by strategic? Do you have a theory as to why this invasion took place?

 

Offline redsniper

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Re: If anyone has ever wondered why I have such disdain for conspiracy theory...
Strategic, like large-scale. Not securing the oil for us directly, but for whoever actually does get their oil from Iraq. Which I guess was supposed to benefit the US somehow in a roundabout way.
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Offline Flipside

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Re: If anyone has ever wondered why I have such disdain for conspiracy theory...
Oddly enough, I think this is a side effect, particularly in the US, of a kind of 'guilt' over a string of badly managed interventions over the past few decades, possibly back as far as Korea and Vietnam, or even the founding of Israel. There seems to be an attitude that a country that could behave like that surely couldn't have done something productive like fly to the moon etc.

It's kind of like 'What have the Romans ever done for us' in modern surroundings.