[General Battuta]

There are literally no supernatural elements in Blue Planet, I'm not sure where you're pulling that from.

I definitely take issue with some of what you pitch as objective fact here, though I also think there's well-founded criticism in there. I'll pick it apart later, storm's a-comin

[Zacam]

Personal Pet Peeve of Mine:

TL:DR synopsis' belong BEFORE a wall of text, not after. Otherwise you destroy the entire point of them being present in the first place because folks will have given up reading before ever getting to them.

I must now also acknowledge that my commentary there adds nothing to the discussion and will hope that others simply read it and move on as it is not worth discussion nor further derailment of the existing discussion.

[SpardaSon21]

General Battuta, the Shivans and Vishnans are sort of at the point where their sufficiently advanced means are pretty close to space magic.  I know you can't see it. but they're very close as to be indistinguishable for some people.

[An4ximandros]

The devs are clearly Vasudans, that's why they don't get it.

 PS: I honestly don't see it, to me they are all just machines, both Shivan and Vishnan. This is clear enough in the dialogue style of the Shivans. But then, to me every living being in the universe is nothing more than an organic computer, so feel free to disagree.

[General Battuta]

General Battuta, the Shivans and Vishnans are sort of at the point where their sufficiently advanced means are pretty close to space magic.  I know you can't see it. but they're very close as to be indistinguishable for some people.

No dude, they really aren't. They're pretty tame compared to a lot of the civilizations discussed in books we file under hard sf (wit. the Xeelee)

[General Battuta]

As much as it pains me to be "that person" (meaning registering at the hlpbb just to post this), I feel I'd do this accomplished mod a disservice if I wouldn't try to give my honest feedback here. Allow me to explain:

I want to just clean out the stuff that I think I fundamentally disagree with here, because there's a lot in here that could lead to really interesting ludological and narrative discussion and I want to focus on that.

less "space magic")

I'll paypal you $20 if you can find any genuinely supernatural space magic 

For the moment, let's ignore the core problems of infusing a quite down-to-earth (and therefore very approachable and still believable) scifi universe with all the supernatural stuff, thus straying far away from the premises of that original scifi universe. Let's say one can accept all these things happening in the "expanded universe" (as told by Blue Planet), Tenebra is just asking for too much suspension of disbelief.

'Disbelief' is an interesting thing, because it's very personal. But what's interesting to me about Blue Planet is that it's actually pretty much just the FreeSpace universe everted. Pick any given plot element in BP (save, I think, one) and I'll point you to its antecedent in FS1/FS2.

They're treated in a completely different fashion, though, which is where I think some people start frowning. The narrative approach is entirely different and a lot more maximalist.

It all starts with the fadeyeen premise: The fact that sol is so rich in resources that the UEF was able to construct a space navy able to withstand advanced (!) GTVA warships (designed to defeat much stronger foes) - very far fetched, but let's run with it for now.

This one I've got to call you out on - it's completely wrong. A single solar system (Sol, for instance) is not just rich enough in resources to construct a space navy, it's rich enough to support every space navy, warship, station, and piece of machinery ever built by humanity in the FreeSpace universe. Solar systems are incredibly big and incredibly full of stuff. The limiting factors on technological and industrial development in FreeSpace settings aren't raw materials - they're infrastructure and the human factor.

Set aside the objection that Sol could never supply the resources to build the UEF's comparatively modest fleet: it's wrong.

Set aside, too, the idea that Sol shouldn't have been able to match the GTVA in technological development. Pay close attention in FreeSpace 2 and you'll find that Earth contained the bulk of human industrial and scientific infrastructure, as well as close to or more than half of its population. You've fallen into a common trap: forgetting that every single colony outside of Sol has existed for less than a century. The real wonder you should be boggling at is that the GTVA is the power it is!

Now within that far-fetched premise there's a spec ops branch that not only has far more advanced technology than anything the GTVA has, computers that can predict the future through simulations and psychology

See above...

stealth fighters that are not only totally invisible (as long as they don't shoot)

The GTVA have these too!

but have viral strikes that can shut down defense networks (and in later missions do whatever is needed for the sake of the mission or storytelling) because all GTVA systems have backdoors (as the hammer of light is much more powerful than ever thought)

This exact plot device is actually used in FreeSpace 2 as well, though careful observation will suggest the most obvious perpetrator isn't actually the guilty party.

There is a professional term for what has happened here and it's called a "designer's game" (or developer's game, take your pick). This happens if features or game mechanics are developed without the player (or majority of players) and their expectations and behaviors in mind, but only your own. Acknowledging that this is a mod done by volunteers using an engine enhanced by volunteers, that's absolutely understandable (expected even).

There's something really interesting in here that I want to talk about, though I can certainly assure you the player was first on our mind through development - we use an iterative cycle that hits a lot of playtesting.

tl;dr: Even when ignoring the soap opera story riddled with deus ex machina plot devices

Again, I'll paypal you money if you can find me either. 

But you also said some really thoughtful stuff in there and I want to engage with that. Give me a bit.

[ehlijen]

I've got to agree with Juno here. While 'magic' may not be the right word, there is a lot of metaphysical stuff in Tenebra that wasn't at that level in Freespace 1 or 2.

Mind-computer link dreamscapes weren't ever a part of the gameplay and as far as I remember not mentioned either. Personality predicting computers weren't used by the humans or vasudans. Maybe the shivans used them, but if so that was all hidden behind the mystery shroud that could have hidden any number of other explanations just as well.

Bosh might have been talked to by the shivans, but he might also have been just insane.

Now, I don't think there is anything wrong with the story so far (at least in WiH, AoA wasn't as strong in my opinion), but it does feel as though the missions move further and further away from what FS1/2 were: space shooters. They weren't homeworld, or Starfleet Command or tower defence nor were they Deus Ex, they were Wing Commander or X-Wing.
Changing that core concept every now and then keeps it interesting, but Tenebra changed it drastically every mission and in different ways each time, never letting the player sit still and just enjoy any given part of it before asking them to learn new things.

I liked Tenebra, but I was having trouble getting into it the way I got into Acts 1 and 2. But I do worry that any further loss of focus will badly hurt an otherwise great mod.

[crazy_dave]

I actually prefer the civil war/human story lines to the metaphysical "Shivan-Vishnan" story lines, but those latter story lines were hardly introduced out of the blue in Tenebrae. Every single one of those concepts have their roots in either retail Freespace or Age of Aquarius/WiH1&2. Yes the Shivans/Vishnans are sort of the "gods" of the FS universe ... and that's why they're named after gods; that's why the original game Freespace 1 called the Shivans ... Shivans. They are the mysterious, inscrutable, avenging Destroyers. FS1 and FS2, FS1 more so, do have some metaphysical lines (especially the Ancients in FS1). BP, esp. AoA and WiH3 with a little in WiH1&2, continues and expands on that though it is still all technology and the humans/vasudans are sometimes able to copy it once they have a grip on what they've just seen happen. Again I do prefer the more human story lines to the metaphysical ones and consequently enjoyed WiH1&2 the most. But if anything WiH brings more explanation to the previously purely inscrutable - it focuses more on the metaphysical, but with an eye towards making more apart of the universe than it was before. 

I think the mission structures fit with the Fedayeen very well: they're a spec ops unit which has finally been unleashed by the UEF and are expect to be flexible in their abilities and operations. So you have one mission each incorporating a different aspect of the fifth column (though missing an infiltration/exfiltration of an asset ): a frame job, an assassination, an anti-terror-cell takedown, a combined arms battle, and a special forces assault. The story lines in each mission are all continuations of the ones from the previous WiH episodes and aren't meant to be viewed in a bottle. Just considering missions, Act 3 is fairly short and tells how the Fedayeen provide an impulse, a direction on each of the story threads. And the Dreamscape is the mechanic that then fills in the rest of the story including the final "mission".

I'll grant you that all the new mechanics could be overwhelming and it usually took me a few tries to get a hang of them each mission and the briefings were a lot more complex (sometimes difficult to follow). I'll also grant that I'm looking forward to a longer Act 4 with more missions and more of the standard Freespace space sim-style missions thrown in. But the new mechanics were interesting and I don't think because FS1&2 didn't do it that the BP team should be shy about introducing them. I liked having to think about them and how to use them effectively; acting as a commander or an assassin instead of a fighter pilot was a refreshing change of gameplay pace - a palatte-cleanser if you will that also sets up some mechanics which can be reused as appropriate during the course of Acts 4 & 5.

It is true that you get less invested in the other characters, but that is sort of the point. Al-Da'wa is a projection/amalgam of the Fedayeen and Laporte is an amalgam of her physical wingmen and is gradually losing her humanity (though actually her connection humanity is in some ways both what could've driven her mad, trying to destroy herself, but is actually also what saved her - i.e. Simms being alive). Even without the Fedayeen ... uniqueness, these are sharks, not soldiers. They are operatives. It's meant to be a different, more distant mentality. One thing was that the Falconer/Laporte friction is rather abrupt - the beginning part felt compressed - it arcs nicely as it thaws, but the beginning was a little off.

I also agree that Act 3 doesn't provide the emotional roller-coaster that Acts 1 & 2 provided and I loved Acts 1 & 2 as it told a more human story. But I thought Act 3 was interesting and innovative and felt very much apart of the overall story. While it tells a self-contained tale in some ways, in others it also is very much a "linker" chapter - i.e. that it flows best and feels less disjointed when viewed in the context of the surrounding chapters - another reason why I also can't wait to see Act 4 to see how the threads continue. Hopefully the current team will one day finish the final chapters and viewed as a finished product, I can easily see Act 3 fitting in to the grand scheme. Act 3 is almost like the FS2 SOC loops made a mandatory, integral part of the main story with more varied and inventive mechanics to go with being special forces. That's how I view Act 3 and I think it works brilliantly as that.

------------

My criticisms are touch more nit-picky:

The GEFs in the first mission have to be sanitized for operational security, that should not really be a choice, and it was not communicated well that letting them live was letting them go entirely. I feel that was a mistake.

The aforementioned Falconer/Laporte friction felt off at first, some of the writing ... I dunno it seemed like references to stuff that got cut or just ... I'm not sure. The arc was fine.

Some of the new mechanics are bit buggy (like artillery stops responding to commands) and I would've liked a little bit more practice with them - i.e. a potentially neat idea would've been a short, optional training simulation before each mission to give you practice with the new mechanics when they could be explained in depth while you use them. I think this would also have helped then clean up the mission briefings a little as they wouldn't have had to explain them.

Those are my main gripes that come to mind.

[General Battuta]

I've got to agree with Juno here. While 'magic' may not be the right word, there is a lot of metaphysical stuff in Tenebra that wasn't at that level in Freespace 1 or 2.

I would say this is explicitly the opposite of what happens in Tenebra. Everything that was metaphysical in FS1 and FS2 - and there was loads of it - is ruthlessly dissected and exploited by a military operation.

e: Seriously this theme is hammered home over and over again in WiH, both in Act 1 and Act 3. Laporte is warned over and over - and you should be warned as well! - not to be lulled by the temptation to engage in mysticism or spirituality. By the end of Act 3 all the spiritual and mythological themes carried over from the FreeSpace games proper have been brutally inverted.

[crazy_dave]

I've got to agree with Juno here. While 'magic' may not be the right word, there is a lot of metaphysical stuff in Tenebra that wasn't at that level in Freespace 1 or 2.

I would say this is explicitly the opposite of what happens in Tenebra. Everything that was metaphysical in FS1 and FS2 - and there was loads of it - is ruthlessly dissected and exploited by a military operation.

e: Seriously this theme is hammered home over and over again in WiH, both in Act 1 and Act 3. Laporte is warned over and over - and you should be warned as well! - not to be lulled by the temptation to engage in mysticism or spirituality. By the end of Act 3 all the spiritual and mythological themes carried over from the FreeSpace games proper have been brutally inverted.

I've been editing my giant post above to make it more cogent, but in short, I can see this. I think at the moment it feels like more simply because the Vishnans were introduced in AoA and you spend more time on stuff glossed over in the main campaigns. Of course the reason is because the humans are trying to figure out the metaphysical/mystical in order to survive powerful forces they don't quite yet understand.

[Juno75]

First of all - I've always admired your willingness to openly engage in discussions and welcoming even negative feedback on these forums Battuta. This is far from common and should be applauded.

Now as there is nothing factually wrong with what you said in your rebuttal, here's the food for thought:

What this shows me is that Blue Planet expects the player to have dissected FS2 and all it's premises or plot points to the same degree as you guys did when you've created Blue Planet. By no means am I an active member of the hlp community, but I've been an avid Freespace 2 player the past years, replaying the (original) campaigns multiple times. So even if I would see the 'correctness' of all your design decisions (logic aka left side of the brain) after you carefully explain them all to me, (in the case of the original premise) my feelings tell me that it's a total 180 to what I would expect of an isolated star system not knowing of advancements made outside (emotion aka right side of the brain).

Good game design (especially in free 2 play titles and this thing here is as free as it gets), needs to focus on emotionally satisfying and engaging player expectations and less so using pure logic.  Even if everything could've happened exactly the way you portrayed it in BP, it's a huge emotional shift in expectations and premises and this cognitive dissonance carries its way through the whole game, diminishing enjoyment (and willingness for experiments). Emotion doesn't mean that the plot uses emotive motifs or tropes, but it's more about the base emotions triggered within the player by your design choices.

So in that regard (and that's the tricky thing about game design), we're both right, because the facts are on your side, but the storytelling failed to bridge the disconnect felt from what FS2 originally was (I'd even go so far saying that AoA was perfect until the disconnect came at the end).

Last but not least, please take this as more of an 'consider these things when continuing development' kind of critique, as its far easier to spot these things if you're doing games for a living and have to engage the biggest possible group of players with stories and game designs. It's no exact science, but making sure to keep players' emotions (such as frustration with missions that can only be finished with perfect timings only) in check is of the utmost importance. Read Eurogamer's and RockPaperShotgun's reviews of 'Strike Suit Zero' to see examples of where a game failed to engage in that regard and was justified by saying something along the lines of 'this is made for the space shoot players who naturally like it hard and frustrating'.

BP is not a commercial product, but it's come so far along that it could (and needs to in my opinion) improve even more by taking lessons learned in those products. Or you can totally ignore all that which is absolutely your choice. But if you think about these things a little more when doing ep4 or 5 than I've achieved all I wanted to achieve here.

[Doko]

I'm honestly surprised at the amount of people bashing tenebra for the unorthodox methods employed by what is described as a secretive organization who's main goal is the preservation of humanity at any cost by any means necessary. There's plenty of alpha 1's out there that can shoot down infinity fighters bombers and kill beam turrets but it takes a special kind of person to fly a stealth fighter to murder a person who believed was doing the right thing behind enemy lines with their own tech (hacking the mjolnir is my preferred method as you might suspect).

On this point I think the only mission that could be considered over the top as far as developers trying to "show off" would be the tower defense extravaganza, not because of the mechanics but because at least for me that mission was poorly executed. Its too easy for starters if you drop the tanks in the optimal configuration, there's no penalty for simply starting the mission and dropping everything right away, from the briefing I got the idea that I was setting up an ambush so I tried to not drop stuff until it seemed like a major attack was about to come in, except it happens pretty much right away on the first wave after the scouts are killed, you can activate the tanks all at once while the transports are still really far off and they keep coming at you like lemmings.
Compared to the level of planning that every other mission had up to that point I found it really weak.

As far as magic goes... the only thing that is not easily explained to me is the whole Ken mission from r1 where you are basically told something is coming and they must prepare yet during universal truth we are told the shivans are merely trolling us with their tech and just seeing what we can do, while being defined as godslayers. Yet they must "prepare" for something.

While this type of narrative might not be for everyone it does have roots in freespace, or was the shivan's blowing up capella magic? Basically I think the whole pantheon of godlike races is BP's crew way of doing their own capella and people have trouble accepting this from a non cannon source.

[crazy_dave]

So in that regard (and that's the tricky thing about game design), we're both right, because the facts are on your side, but the storytelling failed to bridge the disconnect felt from what FS2 originally was (I'd even go so far saying that AoA was perfect until the disconnect came at the end).

That's interesting: I found AoA to be, almost throughout the story, more disconnected in tone from the original games than any of the Acts in WiH so far, including the last one. The original games were often very minimalist in story structure and used that to convey a professional military cadence to the story. Even so, Freespace 1 had some metaphysical undertones and while FS2 had less of that, it also added more mysteries about the Shivans and their goals and some philosophizing in the form of Bosch. In AoA rather than simply being undercurrents, the mysterious and mystical completely surfaced. I enjoyed the game, parts of it particularly so, but I found the shift in tone of AoA with respect to the originals actually a little jarring when I first played it.

Good game design (especially in free 2 play titles and this thing here is as free as it gets), needs to focus on emotionally satisfying and engaging player expectations and less so using pure logic.  Even if everything could've happened exactly the way you portrayed it in BP, it's a huge emotional shift in expectations and premises and this cognitive dissonance carries its way through the whole game, diminishing enjoyment (and willingness for experiments). Emotion doesn't mean that the plot uses emotive motifs or tropes, but it's more about the base emotions triggered within the player by your design choices.

Subversion of expectation can also be a powerful tool in storytelling. For instance, the BP team set up Delenda Est beautifully. I completely bought that the UEF was about to win a major victory and to have those hopes dashed was emotionally crushing ... in the best possible way. There are different types of player expectations, but even aforementioned shifts in the tone and style for a game are not necessarily a negative if done right. Some think that was achieved by the BP team, others disagree. Contrary to your assertion, one could in fact argue that a F2P mod made by the community has more freedom to explore different story structures, mechanics, and ideas than a commercial sequel would have precisely because it is not official, "non-canon", and therefore up to the player if they choose to accept its devices.

However, I can empathize with you on some of these points: I also believe the GTVA of the 2nd Shivan war would not have launched a strike on its own home as the current GTA administration has done, even in light of the revelations in Act 3. That would be out of character (I assume that is the cognitive dissonance to which you refer at the end of AoA?). But that is another case where the subversion of expectation was used to create an emotional shock. I was also surprised that Earth has as large and capable a fleet as it does (I even wrote so in the forum way back when). However, the writers have tried to convey the backstory and culture of the respective antagonists as much as possible within the story. As for the rest, the reasons for Earth's current capabilities and Earth's/GTA's shifts in culture are also covered in greater depth in the lore that the player can choose to read in the Tech Simulator. I suppose the idea is that: either the player will simply accept the world as given and enjoy the plot the writers have created moving forward from the setup, or question it further and investigate the details of how this situation 18 years after the second game came about - and >50 years since last contact with Earth. The BP team are pushing the original Freespace story structure past its original design and they have attempted to make it a believable future of the original games, while still leaving some mysteries as to what is happening and why to be filled in by later installments. I feel that most of what they have attempted in this regard has worked really well. But feel free to continue to disagree.

[ehlijen]

I'm honestly surprised at the amount of people bashing tenebra for the unorthodox methods employed by what is described as a secretive organization who's main goal is the preservation of humanity at any cost by any means necessary. There's plenty of alpha 1's out there that can shoot down infinity fighters bombers and kill beam turrets but it takes a special kind of person to fly a stealth fighter to murder a person who believed was doing the right thing behind enemy lines with their own tech (hacking the mjolnir is my preferred method as you might suspect).

The problem comes when the target audience is all those people who enjoyed being Alpha 1 in FS1/2 so much they're still with the game. Trying to make a mod to a really old game and then not emphasising the parts that those die hard fans liked about it is a risky thing.

FS2 had SOC missions, and they still remembered to be about dogfighting because that's what players of a space shooter look for in a space shooter. If you want to take out the dogfighting, you need to replace it with something those players will accept, and Tenebra was too all over the place to effectively do that. It didn't keep the Alpha 1s as a target but it also didn't go for any specific other group. As a result, many feel it is unfocused.

It may make sense plotwise, but one thing FS1/2 knew was that the plot shouldn't get in the way of a fun mission.

[Juno75]

The problem comes when the target audience is all those people who enjoyed being Alpha 1 in FS1/2 so much they're still with the game. Trying to make a mod to a really old game and then not emphasising the parts that those die hard fans liked about it is a risky thing.

FS2 had SOC missions, and they still remembered to be about dogfighting because that's what players of a space shooter look for in a space shooter. If you want to take out the dogfighting, you need to replace it with something those players will accept, and Tenebra was too all over the place to effectively do that. It didn't keep the Alpha 1s as a target but it also didn't go for any specific other group. As a result, many feel it is unfocused.

It may make sense plotwise, but one thing FS1/2 knew was that the plot shouldn't get in the way of a fun mission.

To be fair, had more time and experience in refining their missions and game design, it wouldn't be fair to expect that from a user created mod. Hell, I'm not even expecting that - I'm just saying that applying some of the design workflow to good use would make Blue Planet even better. I'm sensing the love and passion that goes into it and I want to like it, but I can't because of many things I explained in previous posts.

The archetypal "Alpha 1" player wants more content within FS2 and its universe, but he doesn't read lots of text. He doesn't read tech room scripts, skips over long dialog screens and is then served an utterly baffling game. "Don't go and play it then" is what most say, others might say "then this isn't for you". All I'm saying is "you're right, but there's no reason not telling them what it is that makes it »not for me«".

[Phantom Hoover]

:facepalm:

were the first people *ever* to design FS missions, and they had to make more than 30 of them in under a year. Are you seriously suggesting they were better at it than the BP team, who have far looser time constraints and are drawing from a far more sophisticated corpus of mission design?

[crazy_dave]

To be fair, had more time and experience in refining their missions and game design, it wouldn't be fair to expect that from a user created mod. Hell, I'm not even expecting that - I'm just saying that applying some of the design workflow to good use would make Blue Planet even better. I'm sensing the love and passion that goes into it and I want to like it, but I can't because of many things I explained in previous posts.

The archetypal "Alpha 1" player wants more content within FS2 and its universe, but he doesn't read lots of text. He doesn't read tech room scripts, skips over long dialog screens and is then served an utterly baffling game. "Don't go and play it then" is what most say, others might say "then this isn't for you". All I'm saying is "you're right, but there's no reason not telling them what it is that makes it »not for me«".

To be fair ... one might expect a user created mod to take more design risks both in story and mission structure precisely because it is a user created mod. It is free and not an official, or "canon", sequel so it can be discarded or made gospel as one wills it to be. Sadly, a sequel will probably never be made.

Personally I have found most of BP - story and missions - to be very well thought out and engaging. But you and I disagree on that ... and that's okay.

[Aesaar]

The archetypal "Alpha 1" player wants more content within FS2 and its universe, but he doesn't read lots of text. He doesn't read tech room scripts, skips over long dialog screens and is then served an utterly baffling game. "Don't go and play it then" is what most say, others might say "then this isn't for you". All I'm saying is "you're right, but there's no reason not telling them what it is that makes it »not for me«".

I would be very cross if BP changed its method of storytelling to suit the kind of player you describe.  No danger of that, of course.  The advantage of not needing to sell BP means it doesn't need to try to appeal to the lowest common denominator.

I'd point your Alpha 1 player to other campaigns instead.

BTW, pick any substantial WiH mission, and there are many fans here (myself included) who think it beats any and all FS2 missions for gameplay.

[Luis Dias]

I like this discussion and I think that Juno's point about saying what is it in Tenebra that doesn't ring well for him is completely fair and justified. Unless of course you merely want a fan crowd yelling yes to everything the artists do.... which I don't think anyone here wants.

[Aesaar]

I'm not telling him to shut up, I'm explaining why I disagree.  Ultimately, what Juno75 seeks may not be compatible with what most of us like about BP.