Author Topic: Lorric makes sounds in Space  (Read 3375 times)

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Offline Lorric

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Lorric makes sounds in Space
They're just sat there shooting each other. And it looks so ugly compared to FS2 now as well :D

THere was one thing I liked a lot though from the youtube link. And it wasn't in the video, it was from the comments.

Person A: "Am I the only person who was bothered by the fact that explosions could be heard in space?"

Person B: "It's actually explained in lore, the camera drones that each ship have simulate sounds to provide greater sensory awareness for the capsuleer."

What a great idea! Don't you think? A practical, believable reason for it.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Lorric makes sounds in Space
Nah that's actually a really common and really stupid rationale that makes no sense. Surprised you haven't heard it before.

This is a super impressive battle that's orders of magnitudes more impressive than anything FSO can manage (for reasons that should be immediately obvious if you spend half a second thinking about it). It's particularly startling that it all went down on an unreinforced node.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2013, 02:29:34 pm by General Battuta »

 

Offline Lorric

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Re: Lorric makes sounds in Space
Nah that's actually a really common and really stupid rationale that makes no sense. Surprised you haven't heard it before.

This is a super impressive battle that's orders of magnitudes more impressive than anything FSO can manage (for reasons that should be immediately obvious if you spend half a second thinking about it). It's particularly startling that it all went down on an unreinforced node.

Why doesn't it make sense? You get to keep one of your senses. If it is taken away, it will impair your capabilities.

Oh of course I know that technically it requires more power. But it doesn't look like much for actually wanting to play. It's just bigger, that's all.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Lorric makes sounds in Space
Nah that's actually a really common and really stupid rationale that makes no sense. Surprised you haven't heard it before.

This is a super impressive battle that's orders of magnitudes more impressive than anything FSO can manage (for reasons that should be immediately obvious if you spend half a second thinking about it). It's particularly startling that it all went down on an unreinforced node.

Why doesn't it make sense? You get to keep one of your senses. If it is taken away, it will impair your capabilities.

It should've taken you ten seconds to realize that there are much better ways to use that sense to build situational awareness than a series of loud bangs.

 

Offline Lorric

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Re: Lorric makes sounds in Space
Nah that's actually a really common and really stupid rationale that makes no sense. Surprised you haven't heard it before.

This is a super impressive battle that's orders of magnitudes more impressive than anything FSO can manage (for reasons that should be immediately obvious if you spend half a second thinking about it). It's particularly startling that it all went down on an unreinforced node.

Why doesn't it make sense? You get to keep one of your senses. If it is taken away, it will impair your capabilities.

It should've taken you ten seconds to realize that there are much better ways to use that sense to build situational awareness than a series of loud bangs.

Enough with the condescension, Battuta. Just talk straight with me or not at all.

Remember, the pilot would have control over this just as we do. We can switch off the SFX if we feel we either don't like it or want the realism of soundless space combat.

When we play and we blow something up at close range, if the explosion was realistically loud, it would probably make us fall out of our chairs. These devices in the ships aren't going to produce such effects just as our computers don't. And even if they did, we have control over the volume.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Lorric makes sounds in Space
Enough with the condescension, Battuta. Just talk straight with me or not at all.

Work up to it, don't ask for it.

If you want to get a sense of how audio cues are used to improve situational awareness you can check out modern aircraft.

 

Offline Lorric

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Re: Lorric makes sounds in Space
Enough with the condescension, Battuta. Just talk straight with me or not at all.

Work up to it, don't ask for it.

If you want to get a sense of how audio cues are used to improve situational awareness you can check out modern aircraft.

You are in a funny mood today.

If you're talking about the likes of missile alarms and missile lock tones and warnings when someone is on your tail, they can still be there right alongside the rest.

If you're talking about something more that I don't know about, I think you're getting too advanced for something I should just know after 10 seconds.

 
Re: Lorric makes sounds in Space
If you want to get a sense of how audio cues are used to improve situational awareness you can check out modern aircraft.

Something along the lines of: Why have an explosion sound effect when a voice saying something like "Arjuna 3 destroyed (at 5 o'clock high)" would convey a good deal more useful information?

Besides the obvious answer: Because it's more fun.

 

Offline Lorric

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Re: Lorric makes sounds in Space
If you want to get a sense of how audio cues are used to improve situational awareness you can check out modern aircraft.

Something along the lines of: Why have an explosion sound effect when a voice saying something like "Arjuna 3 destroyed (at 5 o'clock high)" would convey a good deal more useful information?

Besides the obvious answer: Because it's more fun.

Thank you.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Lorric makes sounds in Space
One of the biggest problems involved in delivering information to a combat pilot or crew is task overload. Fighter pilots in particular - but warship crews as well - actively struggle to process all the data available, sometimes so badly that they fly into the ground or make tragic mistakes because they're unable to attend to the most urgent information.

If you're building any kind of information delivery process, you want a system that can prioritize the most salient information to the crew's survival and their mission. This is why the science fictional cop-out of 'simulated sounds' doesn't make sense  - it delivers a lot of intuitive but indistinct noise rather than a set of compressed, attention-grabbing cues that the crew can train on and learn to associate with key behaviors. The CAWS/betty systems on modern aircraft are an example of one answer to this challenge, using a cue to indicate urgency and a brief informative statement to get across key information right away.

One advantage simulated explosions in 3D space would have is their embedded location data - they can exploit the human auditory system's ability to position a sound rapidly and intuitively to deliver information on distance and intensity. But it's possible to do exactly the same thing with more informative cues that prioritize key information, like a debris threat or a radiation hazard.

Verisimilitude comes far behind function in designing systems like this. Simulating fake sound is a complex and bad solution to the problem.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Lorric makes sounds in Space
If you want to get a sense of how audio cues are used to improve situational awareness you can check out modern aircraft.

Something along the lines of: Why have an explosion sound effect when a voice saying something like "Arjuna 3 destroyed (at 5 o'clock high)" would convey a good deal more useful information?

Besides the obvious answer: Because it's more fun.

I'm not sure this would be a great idea because it could put the pilot in a verbal multitasking situation. All humans, whether they recognize or not, are ****ing awful multitaskers in most modalities, and that includes attending to and processing language.

 

Offline Lorric

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Re: Lorric makes sounds in Space
I'm looking at some of these sample verbal warnings on wikipedia. I almost wonder, if they've got these down, with the computer identifying such threats, maybe by the time we've got ships capable of space combat and all the tech that goes with it, maybe pilots will be obsolete and computers will be flying the ships and people of that era will be scoffing at old sci-fi flicks and games at the notion that a person would be piloting the vessels.

On another note Battuta, I wonder what you would think if you were told to "work up to it" if the boot was on the other foot. You are the one who was chellenging my opinion. If it was the other way around, someone else would be challenging what you said. So they're the one who should be having to work, if anyone. What would you say if someone was basically telling you that you had to earn the right not to be talked down to? I wonder if you would be as polite as I was, or just tell them to piss off?

I do agree now that in the real World such mechanisms would be preferable to simulated space combat sound effects. Though I think these simulated effects would be better than just silence.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Lorric makes sounds in Space
Take it to PMs.

 

Offline Lorric

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Re: Lorric makes sounds in Space
Take it to PMs.

There's no need.

If you want to send me a PM, you can and I'll respond there. But otherwise we can just drop it if you want. I still think you're in a funny mood today, and I don't want to argue.

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Lorric makes sounds in Space
On another note Battuta, I wonder what you would think if you were told to "work up to it" if the boot was on the other foot. You are the one who was chellenging my opinion. If it was the other way around, someone else would be challenging what you said. So they're the one who should be having to work, if anyone. What would you say if someone was basically telling you that you had to earn the right not to be talked down to? I wonder if you would be as polite as I was, or just tell them to piss off?

Considering Batts said it to make you use your brain as a teaching methodology, this entire section of the post is passive-aggressive ****wittery.
"Load sabot. Target Zaku, direct front!"

A Feddie Story

 

Offline Dragon

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Re: Lorric makes sounds in Space
Actually, simulating explosion sound in space makes a lot of sense. What's a better way to signal there's an explosion than "boom" sound? Afterall, the source might not be easy to identify (as it just exploded) and all the information you can have is the magnitude of the explosion and it's distance, both quite easy to intuitively handle by a simulated sound cue. Verbal cues are good for more complex messages, but they carry the risk of a "helmet fire" (pilot overload). Sound cues are very important when whatever they indicate needs to be handled when, say, having your eyes fixed on a bandit. They're usually in form of various beeps and tones in modern fighters, but in space, you have to compensate for a large amount of verbal cues lost when you exit the atmosphere. So, it's not a stupid cop-out but a reasonable explanation.
I'm looking at some of these sample verbal warnings on wikipedia. I almost wonder, if they've got these down, with the computer identifying such threats, maybe by the time we've got ships capable of space combat and all the tech that goes with it, maybe pilots will be obsolete and computers will be flying the ships and people of that era will be scoffing at old sci-fi flicks and games at the notion that a person would be piloting the vessels.
I don't think it will happen by the time we've got space combat capable ships (which will hopefully never happen and won't be needed, there are treaties prohibiting this). This will happen earlier. Make fun of UAVs and their operators all you want, but they're the future (and before that future happens: How many UAV operators are needed to change a lightbulb? :) ).
If you think about it, space combat would likely resemble naval combat with infinite sensor range than air combat. "Space fighters" are likely to be spaceplanes good for planetary defense, capable of rapidly responding to a threat in orbit. They'd have their niche, but won't be nearly as important as airplanes in naval battles.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Lorric makes sounds in Space
No, it's a stupid cop-out and an unreasonable explanation. It is a bad way to convey data.

 

Offline Dragon

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Re: Lorric makes sounds in Space
No, it's a stupid cop-out and an unreasonable explanation. It is a bad way to convey data.
Way to address my point. Go play Falcon 4 (or FreeFalcon 5) or some other good flight sim (even old Novalogic ones may do, though they're somewhat simplistic) and report in again. In the heat of the dogfight, seconds count. An intuitive sound effect could potentially save a few. I have a feeling that you have no idea how modern air combat works. So either try to experience it or quote a respectable source (hint: not yourself :) ).

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Lorric makes sounds in Space
No, it's a stupid cop-out and an unreasonable explanation. It is a bad way to convey data.
Way to address my point. Go play Falcon 4 (or FreeFalcon 5) or some other good flight sim (even old Novalogic ones may do, though they're somewhat simplistic) and report in again. In the heat of the dogfight, seconds count. An intuitive sound effect could potentially save a few. I have a feeling that you have no idea how modern air combat works. So either try to experience it or quote a respectable source (hint: not yourself :) ).

I'm a multi hundred hour Allied Force vet. I already addressed your point. Read the thread before you post in it.

 

Offline Lorric

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Re: Lorric makes sounds in Space
On another note Battuta, I wonder what you would think if you were told to "work up to it" if the boot was on the other foot. You are the one who was chellenging my opinion. If it was the other way around, someone else would be challenging what you said. So they're the one who should be having to work, if anyone. What would you say if someone was basically telling you that you had to earn the right not to be talked down to? I wonder if you would be as polite as I was, or just tell them to piss off?

Considering Batts said it to make you use your brain as a teaching methodology, this entire section of the post is passive-aggressive ****wittery.

Disagree 100%. Condescension is never a good thing. Especially when it should be obvious I just don't know.

I would say everyone should take a leaf out of Axem's book on how you conduct business, he's as smart as anyone on here, but never elitist. Just very nice and very helpful. At least in my experience.