Author Topic: Witcher 3  (Read 10369 times)

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It seems to me -- and this is a really hostile analysis -- that the Witcher is made by and for the stereotypical 'hardcore PC gamer', to satisfy a bunch of personal dogmas. The graphics are designed from the get-go to take advantage of all the latest blit-mapping and re-triangulating and what have you (but aren't so concerned with the actual art).

You do not seem to have played the second game. It has gorgoues art direction and design. From the magnificent La Valette castle to the eerie and beautiful Fangorn-like forest of Flotsam or the dirty and gritty Kaedweni military camp, simply superb design. The character costumes (especially the different armor suits) have been modeled after actual historical designs, so was the architecture and so on and on.
What's so bad about high-end graphics? As long as it is properly optimized so that everyone with a decent PC can run the game (obviously without all the bells and whistles then), I see no problem. Besides, TW3 will be released on XBone and PS4, so you don't have to have a 1500$ PC to enjoy the game with nice visuals anyway.

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The game mechanics and interface are very complex, none of that 'streamlining' here. The setting and story are all grit and darkness and moral ambiguity.

And this is bad because...? There is enough high-fantasy, good vs. evil, hero saves the world, with gaudy, gummi bears graphics as it is...

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The main character and tone are unabashedly macho (sex cards). It just... all seems like pandering.
Yeah, the sex cards were a bit over the top. The game, however, never forces you to  pursue a sexual encounter, it's up to the player. In TW2 sexual relationships are much less random than they are in TW1, and should be more serious in TW3.
And the game world is as misogynistic as it is misandristic. When it comes to being an asshole, then there's not much of a difference between men and women.

 

Offline Dragon

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And the game world is as misogynistic as it is misandristic. When it comes to being an asshole, then there's not much of a difference between men and women.
Couldn't have said it better. :) You pretty much described humans as presented "The Witcher". It's worth mentioning that race doesn't really matter, either. Humans, elves, dwarves... they're all bastards with a very few exceptions. Oh, and those exceptions have a depressing tendency to die horribly. That's "The Witcher" for you. The only consolation is that assholes also sometimes die horribly. It's a grim and cynical world, unlike most High Fantasy out there.
I don't really think you can deflect critical analysis of the Witcher games by saying it's all taken from the books like that.
No, what I'm trying to say that the elements criticized are a part of it being set in "The Witcher" universe. It wouldn't be "The Witcher" without them. Now, you're free to criticize the series as a whole, but considering the game without the context of the books is a mistake. When talking about a licensed game, it's essential to consider it's relation to source material.

 
Is it really? The Witcher books are barely even available in English; I'm pretty sure the vast majority of the player base haven't read them.
The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell.

 

Offline Dragon

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Just because you haven't read the source material doesn't mean it isn't important. It's a bit of a problem with the first game, TBH. It was never intended to get this popular abroad, being based on an obscure Polish franchise. It was assumed that it'd be played by (Polish) Witcher fans, and as such, it was designed with a ton of references and really closely fitting with source material's tone. Also, aside from American localization, it made no effort to account for more prudish or "delicate" audiences. Perhaps this was why it was so successful. The Witcher novels were also like that, grim, really dark and, at times, rather explicit. The Witcher game was everything it was designed to be, and I think it turned out excellent. I wanted to explain that the game itself isn't to blame for the "flaws" you listed, the source material is. You wouldn't blame a Star Wars game for lack of realism, wouldn't you?

Also, I've heard The Witcher 2 fixed a lot of the above. It's still a grim, crapsack world, but sexual content has been toned down and the game streamlined somewhat. I haven't got to it yet (I want to re-play 1 and finish the bonus content), but I'm looking forward to it.

 

Offline Kobrar44

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When talking about a licensed game, it's essential to consider it's relation to source material.

Actually it isn't. A game is a game. A separate product. Each individual game needs to be a separate tale/world in the first place. First Witcher neatly started with Geralt's amnesia and even if I never read any Witcher books, I was introduced into the world pretty damn well. I can't play II with the craptop I have, but if it doesn't do the same in some other way, that's a minus.
Oh guys, use that [ url ][ img ][ /img ][ /url ] :/

 

Offline Dragon

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Isn't the point of a licensed game that it isn't a separate world? A separate story, yes, but set in an already established world. It can be played standalone or as an introduction to the world, but I think that especially in case of The Witcher the player greatly benefits from previous knowledge of the series (it could also work the other way around, though the game does feature a few spoilers). Geralt's amnesia serves the main purpose of allowing his character to develop in a way player choses to take him, as he was pretty well defined by the end of the saga. Note that if he remembered the events of the Saga, he probably wouldn't go fooling around Vizima in first place.

Also, for an in-depth analysis/critique, it's important to consider the source material. Criticizing the game for what it didn't invent and for what it shouldn't change is pointless. If anything, licensed games are usually criticized for not sticking to source material closely enough. I consider it's faithfulness to Sapkowski's setting a very good thing.

 
I really don't get how the devs are excused any flaws in their game because 'it was in the original work'. They chose to make a game based on that. They obviously thought those elements were acceptable, otherwise they'd have picked something else or toned it down.
The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell.

 
I really don't get how the devs are excused any flaws in their game because 'it was in the original work'. They chose to make a game based on that. They obviously thought those elements were acceptable, otherwise they'd have picked something else or toned it down.

Which flaws. You haven't pointed anything out. You've expressed your dislike about the general direction of the game. You said you dislike it, because of its high hardware requirements, its art design, its dark atmosphere and lack of a clear cut morality, and because of its erotic content.
It's perfectly fine to dislike such things, but these aren't flaws of the game, just like Call of Duty being a casual, fast-paced, streamlined 1st-person shooter isn't a flaw of the game. It's a design decision.
Now, we can talk about flaws in the Witcher games. There are the debatable combat mechanics in TW1, the sometimes unresponsive controls in TW2, the inverted learning curve in TW2, the lack of a proper tutorial in TW2, the unbalanced equipment droppings, the foliage popins, the useless minimap etc pp.
These are flaws. Some have been adressed by the community or the developers, others are still there, and hopefully won't be there in TW3.

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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for what it shouldn't change is pointless

This is where you go wrong. If there are inconsistencies in the source material that the game is forced to address, it ought to make serious effort to address them. The game has writers, their job is to deliver a good story, if they have to correct things to do so that's their job.
"Load sabot. Target Zaku, direct front!"

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Offline Dragon

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Nope, nothing wrong here at all. The game is not forced to address anything, especially if it means re-writing half the setting. It could try filling the plot holes or explaining away inconsistencies, but the canon is set in stone unless the author says otherwise (Sapkowski didn't actually work on the game). The setting, the basic atmosphere and certain other concepts like magic or social system define the universe. For example, would an SW EU novel that completely redefines (as in, contradicts what's explicitly said in the movies) how The Force works be good for anything? At certain point, a derivative work stops being derivative and start being a suspiciously similar, but original one. Some corrections are permissible, but they can't be too excessive, or you get an "in name only" adaptation. Sure, small adjustments here and there can be done, The Witcher did that, too. For example, it defined a lot of concepts Sapkowski only skimmed and straightened out some minor inconsistencies (along with introducing some of it's own, like making available a book that was written a century later. Nobody's perfect). Those things don't touch the core of the setting. What PH was talking about are things that define what "The Witcher" is, and those should not be changed.

 
i really don't know how to explain this to you

edit: ok in desperation i will resort to a nazi analogy: if i make a film based on mein kampf, presenting all the ideals it holds in earnest, arguing that i'm just faithfully representing the source material does not get me off the hook of being a nazi, because i have still willingly put my own stamp of approval on it by making it into a film
« Last Edit: September 12, 2013, 07:48:53 pm by Phantom Hoover »
The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell.

 

Offline FlamingCobra

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Why couldn't CD Projekt put Witcher 3 on hold and devote all their resources to Cyberpunk 2077?

 
i really don't know how to explain this to you

edit: ok in desperation i will resort to a nazi analogy: if i make a film based on mein kampf, presenting all the ideals it holds in earnest, arguing that i'm just faithfully representing the source material does not get me off the hook of being a nazi, because i have still willingly put my own stamp of approval on it by making it into a film

You are seriously comparing a work of fiction with a fascist pamphlet (a horribly written one on top of that)?  :shaking:
I think you are not quite able to grasp the difference between the author of a work of fiction and the fictional world described in said work of fiction.
Just because I am making a movie/game or writing a book about the atrocities of war doesn't mean I'm a warmonger. Even if my main character is a warmonger, it doesn't say anything about my views on war. Heck, even if the narrator of the novel praises war above else, necessarily doesn't mean that I, the author, think about it the same way.
In the game Spec Ops: The Line, you are playing a delusional soldier, who justifies every war crime he commits by arguing his "hand was forced" and that such atrocities are necessary to reach his ultimate goal. This doesn't mean that the game or the game devs are condoning war or war crimes (or even you, the player).
But to return to the Witcher games: there is not a single instance, where Geralt says it's ok to rape women, it's okay to murder people for fun, or that moral nihilism is a great thing. To the contrary, to put it in D&D words: Geralt is a chaotic good character in world that is mostly neutral/chaotic/lawful evil. Or as a member in the Witcher forums put it: Geralt is a moral absolutist in a world of relative morals. (Which is inherently tragic and ironic)
 Many other characters in the game (and the novels) repeatedly articulate critical comments on war, violence, greed, poverty etc. The Witcher games and novels themselves are not amoral or immoral. Many characters populating the game world are, yes, on the other hand there are those who have a moral code, who are compassionate, helpful and selfless.

 

Offline AdmiralRalwood

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to put it in D&D words: Geralt is a chaotic good character in world that is mostly neutral/chaotic/lawful evil. Or as a member in the Witcher forums put it: Geralt is a moral absolutist in a world of relative morals. (Which is inherently tragic and ironic)
Except a moral absolutist... is Lawful, not Chaotic.
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Codethulhu GitHub wgah'nagl fhtagn.

schrödinbug (noun) - a bug that manifests itself in running software after a programmer notices that the code should never have worked in the first place.

When you gaze long into BMPMAN, BMPMAN also gazes into you.

"I am one of the best FREDders on Earth" -General Battuta

<Aesaar> literary criticism is vladimir putin

<MageKing17> "There's probably a reason the code is the way it is" is a very dangerous line of thought. :P
<MageKing17> Because the "reason" often turns out to be "nobody noticed it was wrong".
(the very next day)
<MageKing17> this ****ing code did it to me again
<MageKing17> "That doesn't really make sense to me, but I'll assume it was being done for a reason."
<MageKing17> **** ME
<MageKing17> THE REASON IS PEOPLE ARE STUPID
<MageKing17> ESPECIALLY ME

<MageKing17> God damn, I do not understand how this is breaking.
<MageKing17> Everything points to "this should work fine", and yet it's clearly not working.
<MjnMixael> 2 hours later... "God damn, how did this ever work at all?!"
(...)
<MageKing17> so
<MageKing17> more than two hours
<MageKing17> but once again we have reached the inevitable conclusion
<MageKing17> How did this code ever work in the first place!?

<@The_E> Welcome to OpenGL, where standards compliance is optional, and error reporting inconsistent

<MageKing17> It was all working perfectly until I actually tried it on an actual mission.

<IronWorks> I am useful for FSO stuff again. This is a red-letter day!
* z64555 erases "Thursday" and rewrites it in red ink

<MageKing17> TIL the entire homing code is held up by shoestrings and duct tape, basically.

 
to put it in D&D words: Geralt is a chaotic good character in world that is mostly neutral/chaotic/lawful evil. Or as a member in the Witcher forums put it: Geralt is a moral absolutist in a world of relative morals. (Which is inherently tragic and ironic)
Except a moral absolutist... is Lawful, not Chaotic.
I always thougt that a lawful good character strictly adheres to the respective laws governing a certain community, whereas a chaotic good character has a personal moral code, which he always follows, regardless of any conflicts with the law. And Geralt often enough "piss[es] on the laws" to quote a Temerian king ;)

 

Offline AdmiralRalwood

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to put it in D&D words: Geralt is a chaotic good character in world that is mostly neutral/chaotic/lawful evil. Or as a member in the Witcher forums put it: Geralt is a moral absolutist in a world of relative morals. (Which is inherently tragic and ironic)
Except a moral absolutist... is Lawful, not Chaotic.
I always thougt that a lawful good character strictly adheres to the respective laws governing a certain community, whereas a chaotic good character has a personal moral code, which he always follows, regardless of any conflicts with the law. And Geralt often enough "piss[es] on the laws" to quote a Temerian king ;)
...No. If that were true, heroes in a tyrannical dictatorship would cease to be Lawful simply by not complying with laws like "you must kick a puppy every five minutes". Which would be stupid.

"Lawful" means you follow a strict code of conduct, whether that has to do with actual laws or not.
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Codethulhu GitHub wgah'nagl fhtagn.

schrödinbug (noun) - a bug that manifests itself in running software after a programmer notices that the code should never have worked in the first place.

When you gaze long into BMPMAN, BMPMAN also gazes into you.

"I am one of the best FREDders on Earth" -General Battuta

<Aesaar> literary criticism is vladimir putin

<MageKing17> "There's probably a reason the code is the way it is" is a very dangerous line of thought. :P
<MageKing17> Because the "reason" often turns out to be "nobody noticed it was wrong".
(the very next day)
<MageKing17> this ****ing code did it to me again
<MageKing17> "That doesn't really make sense to me, but I'll assume it was being done for a reason."
<MageKing17> **** ME
<MageKing17> THE REASON IS PEOPLE ARE STUPID
<MageKing17> ESPECIALLY ME

<MageKing17> God damn, I do not understand how this is breaking.
<MageKing17> Everything points to "this should work fine", and yet it's clearly not working.
<MjnMixael> 2 hours later... "God damn, how did this ever work at all?!"
(...)
<MageKing17> so
<MageKing17> more than two hours
<MageKing17> but once again we have reached the inevitable conclusion
<MageKing17> How did this code ever work in the first place!?

<@The_E> Welcome to OpenGL, where standards compliance is optional, and error reporting inconsistent

<MageKing17> It was all working perfectly until I actually tried it on an actual mission.

<IronWorks> I am useful for FSO stuff again. This is a red-letter day!
* z64555 erases "Thursday" and rewrites it in red ink

<MageKing17> TIL the entire homing code is held up by shoestrings and duct tape, basically.

 
Ah, alright. I stand corrected. :) I guess what I described above would be a lawful neutral character then?

 

Offline AdmiralRalwood

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Ah, alright. I stand corrected. :) I guess what I described above would be a lawful neutral character then?
If you think a character is unconcerned with Good or Evil, then Neutral is where they must inevitably end up.

Granted I haven't read any of the books, but I'd think Geralt would fall under Lawful Good.
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Codethulhu GitHub wgah'nagl fhtagn.

schrödinbug (noun) - a bug that manifests itself in running software after a programmer notices that the code should never have worked in the first place.

When you gaze long into BMPMAN, BMPMAN also gazes into you.

"I am one of the best FREDders on Earth" -General Battuta

<Aesaar> literary criticism is vladimir putin

<MageKing17> "There's probably a reason the code is the way it is" is a very dangerous line of thought. :P
<MageKing17> Because the "reason" often turns out to be "nobody noticed it was wrong".
(the very next day)
<MageKing17> this ****ing code did it to me again
<MageKing17> "That doesn't really make sense to me, but I'll assume it was being done for a reason."
<MageKing17> **** ME
<MageKing17> THE REASON IS PEOPLE ARE STUPID
<MageKing17> ESPECIALLY ME

<MageKing17> God damn, I do not understand how this is breaking.
<MageKing17> Everything points to "this should work fine", and yet it's clearly not working.
<MjnMixael> 2 hours later... "God damn, how did this ever work at all?!"
(...)
<MageKing17> so
<MageKing17> more than two hours
<MageKing17> but once again we have reached the inevitable conclusion
<MageKing17> How did this code ever work in the first place!?

<@The_E> Welcome to OpenGL, where standards compliance is optional, and error reporting inconsistent

<MageKing17> It was all working perfectly until I actually tried it on an actual mission.

<IronWorks> I am useful for FSO stuff again. This is a red-letter day!
* z64555 erases "Thursday" and rewrites it in red ink

<MageKing17> TIL the entire homing code is held up by shoestrings and duct tape, basically.

 
i KNEW that nazi analogy would backfire
The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell.

 

Offline Luis Dias

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What did you expect? :D

Anyways, I am on the camp of "Damn you ****ty devs make the most truthful rendition of the source material even if you don' like certain aspects of it!"

For instance, I loathe Ayn Rand but if the movie "Fountainhead" didn't render it correctly I would be even more pissed at the movie than with the book.