Author Topic: OH U IRAN U  (Read 12449 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Thaeris

  • Can take his lumps
  • 211
  • Away in Limbo
In conclusion, before someone actually finds the official press release, I will argue that if the F-313 is intended to become a working design within what has been shown, it will not be a modern "superfighter." From what has already been echoed from the official press-release in reporting articles, it cannot take down modern fighter craft not only due to avionic/stability/structural issues (all are related in this instance), but due to aerodynamic issues as well, which I discussed in my prior post. No, it will be an attack plane maneuvering very little and staying out of the high-alpha flight regime. It probably will employ a small afterburning or even non-afterburning turbojet engine, make use of a small internal weapons bay, and rely on large amounts of off-the-shelf hardware which Iran can either manufacture locally or get relatively easily from outside markets. I assume their command staff recognizes that it would be impossible to win a war of attrition with their potential attackers, so why attempt to match them when that goal cannot be attained? This is a product of a MAD policy of sorts - Iran will lose a conflict should it begin, but they will attempt to get a few jabs in before they go.

This bit certainly has merit on certain Strategic levels.  There are certain strategic doctrines which use the concept that in order to deter a war you dont need to match your opponent in capability and capacity, just build a force which would be capable of inflicting unacceptable losses on the enemy.  Pre WWI German naval doctrine was based on this IIRC to try and prevent the British Empire getting involved in a war with them.  In the current political climate for the West the general populations are very shy about casualties, especially in an offensive wars meaning that if Iran can offer a fight which although they would loose will inflict notable casualties then it could be enough to keep the west out of the country

For those absolutely certain that Iran is pursuing a nuclear weapons program, balls-to-the-wall, then this aircraft certainly has the potential to drive either the fear-mongering or war-mongering rhetoric up to necessary levels to support greater levels of military force in the region - if most people weren't so busy laughing about it. A cheap LO strike bomber would make a lot of people nervous. Especially if it had "the bomb."
"trolls are clearly social rejects and therefore should be isolated from society, or perhaps impaled."

-Nuke



"Look on the bright side, how many release dates have been given for Doomsday, and it still isn't out yet.

It's the Duke Nukem Forever of prophecies..."


"Jesus saves.

Everyone else takes normal damage.
"

-Flipside

"pirating software is a lesser evil than stealing but its still evil. but since i pride myself for being evil, almost anything is fair game."


"i never understood why women get the creeps so ****ing easily. i mean most serial killers act perfectly normal, until they kill you."


-Nuke

 

Offline Luis Dias

  • 211
"The Bomb" would probably be bigger and heavier than that paper plane, Thaeris.

 

Offline headdie

  • i don't use punctuation lol
  • 212
  • Lawful Neutral with a Chaotic outook
    • Skype
    • Twitter
    • Headdie on Deviant Art
"The Bomb" would probably be bigger and heavier than that paper plane, Thaeris.

in this context a "small" tactical nuke would probably suffice, its more about the weapon being nuclear based and the psychological threat surrounding it than anything else.
Minister of Interstellar Affairs Sol Union - Retired
quote General Battuta - "FRED is canon!"
Contact me at [email protected]
My Release Thread, Old Release Thread, Celestial Objects Thread, My rubbish attempts at art

 

Offline Nuke

  • Ka-Boom!
  • 212
  • Mutants Worship Me
from the looks of the plane i can only assume that the biggest nuclear threat from iran is all the radioactive iranians.
I can no longer sit back and allow communist infiltration, communist indoctrination, communist subversion, and the international communist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids.

Nuke's Scripting SVN

 
Radioactive zombie army?
17:37:02   Quanto: I want to have sexual intercourse with every space elf in existence
17:37:11   SpardaSon21: even the males?
17:37:22   Quanto: its not gay if its an elf

[21:51] <@Droid803> I now realize
[21:51] <@Droid803> this will be SLIIIIIGHTLY awkward
[21:51] <@Droid803> as this rich psychic girl will now be tsundere for a loli.
[21:51] <@Droid803> OH WELLL.

See what you're missing in #WoD and #Fsquest?

[07:57:32] <Caiaphas> inspired by HerraTohtori i built a supermaneuverable plane in ksp
[07:57:43] <Caiaphas> i just killed my pilots with a high-g maneuver
[07:58:19] <Caiaphas> apparently people can't take 20 gees for 5 continuous seconds
[08:00:11] <Caiaphas> the plane however performed admirably, and only crashed because it no longer had any guidance systems

 

Offline NGTM-1R

  • I reject your reality and substitute my own
  • 213
  • Syndral Active. 0410.
in this context a "small" tactical nuke would probably suffice, its more about the weapon being nuclear based and the psychological threat surrounding it than anything else.

Making a nuke small enough to hang off that plane would be an order of magnitude more difficult than making a nuke at all.
"Load sabot. Target Zaku, direct front!"

A Feddie Story

 

Offline Pred the Penguin

  • 210
  • muahahaha...
    • EaWPR
Make the plane into a nuke?

 

Offline Klaustrophobia

  • 210
  • the REAL Nuke of HLP
    • North Carolina Tigers
nukes have been made into mortars, howitzer shells, and even small-arms fired munitions.
I like to stare at the sun.

 

Offline Herra Tohtori

  • The Academic
  • 211
  • Bad command or file name
On a serious note, this aircraft looks a bit like something from modern stealth concepts with... way too much 80's style polygon shapes thrown in. They need a better way to run those simulations on Maxwell's equations!

I think maybe you meant Navier-Stokes equations. Maxwell's equations are about electromagnetism.

Quote
The main design planform looks like it was borrowed from the X-36, albeit with the addition of canted vert stabs. If they plan to have the actual prototype flying with all that ugly geometry on there, then certainly they will be needed. Further images along in the gallery show an image of McDonnel Douglas' (then re-named by Boeing) Bird of Prey, which makes an interesting comparison to the wing design. The general planform of that wing does have merit in the broad sense, being able to trap a high pressure system beneath itself. For a short span, this is a sensible consideration, though the fact remains that such an aircraft will have a very high wing loading.

Other elements of the design are also questionable. The topside air intakes are certainly of poor design, though certainly that sort of design can be made viable. The main problem facing fighter aircraft using those types of inlets is the fact that high-alpha maneuvers, or sudden postitive pitch movements may create... almost a vacuum of sorts - or, more concisely put, the same problem that affects the upper surface of a wing in stall affects those inlets. Once laminar flow ceases (or nominal levels of turbulent flow) and separation ensues, the engines become starved for air.  This of course happens at the time you need engine power the most!

The worst part is... I can see enough thought into the design to validate that this is indeed a real design. Unfortunately, it looks like it was designed by a team of sophmore or junior undergrads rather than a seasoned design team. There's just this ugly jumble of sharp edges and then conventional airfoils - no blending in what was certainly meant to be an aircraft that generates a lot of lift from the fuselage itself! I wonder if they got a copy of CATIA, crunched some numbers, and then all you got was this shoddily-made result just boolean'd together...


If it's actually made from structural materials and balanced right, and given a real powerplant, I'm sure the design would fly... a bit. However, as far as ability to function as a modern aircraft, I very much doubt the design's capability to do that.

The most revealing fact to me is the unbelievably thick wing. The chord ratio seems like it would be more at home on a pre-WW2 fighter aircraft built of wood and fabric. A wing that thick will produce a lot of lift (which it would surely need due to the rather small wing area) but it would produce so much drag that I doubt the plane would go much faster than maybe 300-400 km/h.

The anhedral winglets would cause some interesting lateral stability issues (roll), but I suppose they COULD enhance the directional stability (yaw), but only if they are placed far enough behind the centre of gravity. The problems about the intake placement have already been discussed and there is no way in hell those are going to work. They are, firstly, too small to provide meaningful airflow, and will choke if the aircraft does any meaningful amount of maneuvering. Additionally, on the bottom half of the fuselage, there are large areas which are essentially a flat face at rather high angle on wing, and that will produce a lot of drag; I suspect that is where someone originally wanted to put the air intakes on the design concept, but someone with more knowledge about "art" questioned such conventional placement and instead put the intakes above the wing plane instead.


Quote
But then, the last fighter project I know of them working on indigenously was this:

http://defensetech.org/2011/09/12/irans-f-5-knockoff-fighter-now-at-squadron-strength/

...In that sense, they've actually come a long way. As for final notes, the small sizes of the inlets and exhaust, no apparent weapons or radar, may suggest at most that this is intended to act as a mockup for a small/mid-scale technology demonstrator. A frontline fighter with a single engine that small just wouldn't be putting out enough thrust to survive in current air combat conditions.


There's no question that it's a mock-up. The question is why would they make a mock-up with so radically dysfunctional features, rather than make the mock-up look like an aircraft that could actually function?


There are basically two possibilities here: Either they really thought someone would fall for this, or it's a misdirection of some sort. Considering Iran's history of spectacularly stupid actions I can't discount the former, and for the latter I see no point as they would rather want to boast with REAL progress than hide it behind a faked failure...
« Last Edit: February 16, 2013, 03:47:13 pm by Herra Tohtori »
There are three things that last forever: Abort, Retry, Fail - and the greatest of these is Fail.

 

Offline headdie

  • i don't use punctuation lol
  • 212
  • Lawful Neutral with a Chaotic outook
    • Skype
    • Twitter
    • Headdie on Deviant Art
There are basically two possibilities here: Either they really thought someone would fall for this, or it's a misdirection of some sort. Considering Iran's history of spectacularly stupid actions I can't discount the former, and for the latter I see no point as they would rather want to boast with REAL progress than hide it behind a faked failure...

I suppose you cant rule out some kind of scenario where the mockup was made with incorrect features to give a false impression of it's capabilities knowing full well that a number of the worlds prominent intelligence agencies are paying close attention to the country so they *will* find out about the project and *will* attempt to monitor development so by presenting a flawed design knowing that short of infiltrating the design team or the ground crew it will be difficult to get detailed images of the real design making this the clearest look they will get for a good while in order to lower the interest in the project.
Minister of Interstellar Affairs Sol Union - Retired
quote General Battuta - "FRED is canon!"
Contact me at [email protected]
My Release Thread, Old Release Thread, Celestial Objects Thread, My rubbish attempts at art

 
On a serious note, this aircraft looks a bit like something from modern stealth concepts with... way too much 80's style polygon shapes thrown in. They need a better way to run those simulations on Maxwell's equations!

I think maybe you meant Navier-Stokes equations. Maxwell's equations are about electromagnetism.

Nope, definitely not Navier-Stokes. We knew how to do aerodynamics way before computers were ever around to solve them. The faceted shape was for electromagnetic calculations alright:

Quote from: Wikipedia
The F-117A's faceted shape (made from 2-dimensional flat surfaces) resulted from the limitations of the 1970s-era computer technology used to calculate its radar cross-section. Later supercomputers made it possible for subsequent planes like the B-2 bomber to use curved surfaces while staying stealthy, through the use of far more computational resources to do the additional calculations needed.

 

Offline Herra Tohtori

  • The Academic
  • 211
  • Bad command or file name
Ahhh, yeah.

I was so stuck on thinking why it was aerodynamically implausible I didn't even consider the stealth aspect. That would indeed involve Maxwell's Silver Hammer to calculate the effective radar cross-section from different angles.
There are three things that last forever: Abort, Retry, Fail - and the greatest of these is Fail.

 

Offline Dragon

  • Citation needed
  • 212
  • The sky is the limit.
in this context a "small" tactical nuke would probably suffice, its more about the weapon being nuclear based and the psychological threat surrounding it than anything else.

Making a nuke small enough to hang off that plane would be an order of magnitude more difficult than making a nuke at all.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Davy_Crockett_(nuclear_device)
The way I see it, the pilot would lean out of the canopy, fire the nuke bazooka and then turn as quickly as possible (which isn't saying much) to avoid the blast. Praying to Allach, fasting and reading holy books would, of course, be a necessary part of the procedure, to be started at preflight (or earlier) and maintained through the whole mission. :)

 
 

Offline Dragon

  • Citation needed
  • 212
  • The sky is the limit.
It's more like 400m. Considering it's likely operational speed with these wings (which would be pretty good... around WWII), it'd be a valid concern. :)

 
It's more like 400m. Considering it's likely operational speed with these wings (which would be pretty good... around WWII), it'd be a valid concern. :)
Well that's why we have retarded bombs, right?

 

Offline Klaustrophobia

  • 210
  • the REAL Nuke of HLP
    • North Carolina Tigers
there are dumb bombs and then there are the REALLY dumb bombs  :lol:
I like to stare at the sun.

 

Offline Dragon

  • Citation needed
  • 212
  • The sky is the limit.
You're right. If they make the bomb match the plane, it might improve it's effectiveness somewhat (which isn't saying much). :lol:

 

Offline yuezhi

  • no u
  • 29
  • ¿¡you dare defy the commodore‽
when dumb bombs simply aren't enough
ϟIn Neo-Terra we Trustϟ
ϟGreat Tin Can Run (Download
☭Gods and Conquerors  - mission design, tech descriptions, sounds; currently 5% Book of Invasions(reserved)☭


░░░░░░███████ ]▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄        ︻╦╤─   Bob is building an army.
    ▂▄▅█████████▅▄▃▂          ☻/         This tank & Bob are against Google+
Il███████████████████].       /▌          Copy and Paste this all over
  ◥⊙▲⊙▲⊙▲⊙▲⊙▲⊙▲⊙◤...     / \          Youtube if you are with us!

 

Offline Thaeris

  • Can take his lumps
  • 211
  • Away in Limbo
in this context a "small" tactical nuke would probably suffice, its more about the weapon being nuclear based and the psychological threat surrounding it than anything else.

Making a nuke small enough to hang off that plane would be an order of magnitude more difficult than making a nuke at all.

As informed as you generally seem to be about these things, you're really not in this instance. A weapon like the B57 tactical nuke was tiny, quite light (lighter than many conventional bombs), and quite small:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B57_nuclear_bomb

Tactical nukes bridge the problem faced with usage of large nuclear weapons, in which the user only deals with the weight and volume of conventional munitions while getting a lot of destructive potential. Simultaneously, the destructive force, while nasty and with all the stuff you don't like about nukes, is not so much that you must destroy all of what you might be fighting over. The problem with tactial weapons is getting good enough at making weapons at all to even think of miniturizing the technology.
"trolls are clearly social rejects and therefore should be isolated from society, or perhaps impaled."

-Nuke



"Look on the bright side, how many release dates have been given for Doomsday, and it still isn't out yet.

It's the Duke Nukem Forever of prophecies..."


"Jesus saves.

Everyone else takes normal damage.
"

-Flipside

"pirating software is a lesser evil than stealing but its still evil. but since i pride myself for being evil, almost anything is fair game."


"i never understood why women get the creeps so ****ing easily. i mean most serial killers act perfectly normal, until they kill you."


-Nuke