Author Topic: Shivans in Blue Planet  (Read 15194 times)

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Offline Apollo

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Shivans in Blue Planet
Uh, no. We still have the same natural capabilities as humans from 1500 BC; all of our power comes from technology.

The Vishnans and Shivans, on the other hand, are just naturally far more powerful than we could ever hope to be.

I am aware of the possibility that a future revelation will contradict that.
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: Shivans in Blue Planet
Uh, no. We still have the same natural capabilities as humans from 1500 BC; all of our power comes from technology.

The Vishnans and Shivans, on the other hand, are just naturally far more powerful than we could ever hope to be.

I am aware of the possibility that a future revelation will contradict that.

I do not see how you, a reasonable person, can possibly believe this. We had an entire thread devoted to explaining this to you.

You honestly believe, having played all the Blue Planet missions released so far, that the Vishnans and Shivans have no technological capabilities?

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Shivans in Blue Planet
I genuinely have no idea how you came up with what you just said.

 

Offline CommanderDJ

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Re: Shivans in Blue Planet
I think what Apollo meant (I could be wrong) is that since the Shivans are basically living supercomputers and the Vishnans are energy beings, their "natural forms" are more capable than ours, as we are composed of mere flesh and bone. Correct me if I misinterpreted you, Apollo.

On this point, however, we do not know if the Shivans and Vishnans were always like this. Given the direction BP is going, I'm willing to guess that extensive technological restructuring was involved in turning the Vishnans and Shivans into what they are now, rather than, say, energy beings "naturally" arising.
[16:57] <CommanderDJ> What prompted the decision to split WiH into acts?
[16:58] <battuta> it was long, we wanted to release something
[16:58] <battuta> it felt good to have a target to hit
[17:00] <RangerKarl> not sure if talking about strike mission, or jerking off
[17:00] <CommanderDJ> WUT
[17:00] <CommanderDJ> hahahahaha
[17:00] <battuta> hahahaha
[17:00] <RangerKarl> same thing really, if you think about it

 

Offline Apollo

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Re: Shivans in Blue Planet
I think what Apollo meant (I could be wrong) is that since the Shivans are basically living supercomputers and the Vishnans are energy beings, their "natural forms" are more capable than ours, as we are composed of mere flesh and bone. Correct me if I misinterpreted you, Apollo.

On this point, however, we do not know if the Shivans and Vishnans were always like this. Given the direction BP is going, I'm willing to guess that extensive technological restructuring was involved in turning the Vishnans and Shivans into what they are now, rather than, say, energy beings "naturally" arising.
Yeah basically.


I do not see how you, a reasonable person, can possibly believe this. We had an entire thread devoted to explaining this to you.
We had an entire thread dedicated to explaining that Blue Planet has nothing supernatural in it. I'm not saying that the Vishnans and Shivans are supernatural or gods, just that they resemble gods, or at least higher life forms.

Quote
You honestly believe, having played all the Blue Planet missions released so far, that the Vishnans and Shivans have no technological capabilities?

The Vishnans and Shivans obviously have very advanced technology. That said, can humans naturally exist outside of time and space, have complete or nearly complete knowledge of past and future, or subvert the minds of lesser beings with their natural abilites?

They aren't gods but they display quite a few abilities that belong to them in mythology and fiction.

All I'm arguing is that some things in BP feel mystical and resemble traditional fantasy elements, not that they actually are. Why does this irritate you so much?
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: Shivans in Blue Planet
The Vishnans and Shivans obviously have very advanced technology. That said, can humans naturally exist outside of time and space, have complete or nearly complete knowledge of past and future, or subvert the minds of lesser beings with their natural abilites?

They aren't gods but they display quite a few abilities that belong to them in mythology and fiction.

All I'm arguing is that some things in BP feel mystical and resemble traditional fantasy elements, not that they actually are. Why does this irritate you so much?

Because you haven't thought about it enough to realize it's internally inconsistent and that annoys me. How do you know the Vishnans and Shivans can 'naturally' exist outside of time and space? Can a ship 'naturally' float on water? Does an airplane 'naturally' fly? Why, they must be gods; flight is a traditional fantasy element

 

Offline Apollo

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Re: Shivans in Blue Planet
Quote from: Battuta link=topic=83436.msg1672214#msg1672214 date=1360546447
Because you haven't thought about it enough to realize it's internally inconsistent and that annoys me. How do you know the Vishnans and Shivans can 'naturally' exist outside of time and space? Can a ship 'naturally' float on water? Does an airplane 'naturally' fly? Why, they must be gods; flight is a traditional fantasy element

Airplanes and boats exist in real life. Vishnans and Shivans don't.

It's possible that the Vishnans and Shivans are built by another race and/or gain all their abilities through technology, but that's irrelevant. They're still a fantasy convention that was altered to fit soft sci-fi; the amount of rationalization you've created proves that. Even a subversion is related to the original trope.
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: Shivans in Blue Planet
Is that seriously your position? You've decided something about someone else's work and you're going to consider anything they say to the contrary 'irrelevant'? You have no interest whatsoever in why I take such issue with your assertion?

Let me point out a few places where I think you're fundamentally wrong:

'irrelevant'

'fantasy convention'

'rationalization'

'subversion'

'trope'

I'm also genuinely annoyed by the way you're approaching this. I'm happy to tell you what I think about the topic (and I am further happy to wager I've thought a great deal more about it than you have, as a published author of both 'hard' science fiction and fantasy). I am not particularly happy to listen to you declare what I think irrelevant, accuse me of 'rationalization', and invoke the sophomoric and facile language of 'tropes' and 'subversions' like we're kids talking about our favorite animes on TVTropes.

Do you want to have this discussion or not? I'm going to teach you a little bit about cosmology, Turing, computational science, strains of thought in modern science fiction, a couple men named Dyson, Kardashev, and Tegmark...or you can keep declaring what I say 'irrelevant'.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Shivans in Blue Planet
Here's an assertion for you to chew on:

The capabilities of both the Vishnans and Shivans are logical consequences of what we understand about the universe today.

That makes them science fiction. Science fiction attempts to predict or extrapolate.

The capabilities of gods and mythological creatures were attempts to invest mechanisms of the universe with relatable human personalities through the human need to anthropomorphize.

That makes them fantasy. Fantasy attempts to reify and contextualize.

 

Offline Apollo

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Re: Shivans in Blue Planet
I'm not using rationalization in a negative sense. Perhaps I worded that poorly.

Blue Planet doesn't have any tropes? Please explain why.

Here's an assertion for you to chew on:

The capabilities of both the Vishnans and Shivans are logical consequences of what we understand about the universe today.

That makes them science fiction. Science fiction attempts to predict or extrapolate.
Well, that interests me.
*prepares to be proven wrong yet again.*
Current Project - Eos: The Coward's Blade. Coming Soon (hopefully.)

 

Offline bigchunk1

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This thread is entertaining, It reminds me of that one episode of the show "party down":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GnYoyCgFKSI

To me the big differance between sci-fi and fantasy is the level of believeability of the events based on the laws of the universe as we know them. So what is believable? I think the sun is pretty believable. Now let me ask you, Is the sun a god? Not really, I don't think I have to argue that, but its life giving light was worshiped by the Egyptians, Greeks and the Aztecs. So to them it was a god.

Anyone remember the movie stargate? Not the show, the very first movie. Remember how the aliens played themselves as gods to their human subordinates? That's sort of how I see the vishnans now. They are a much more technologically advanced species who in their arrogance likes to enslave whole races to make a subjectively more perfect world.

After playing BP1 I remember not liking the whole vishnan thing, because from our perspective as a human they do appear to be gods. They dictate what's right and what's wrong, they are all knowing, they are all powerful etc. More importantly, they are unexplained. They are just that force that seems to bring 'balance', a cheap plot point to connect the last puzzle piece.

So now in tenebra, we see the vishnans in a new light. They are the alien race who uses their technological dominace to act as gods, and from our perspective, their technology appears godlike. For some reason I can go for that a lot more easily. While the mechanism they use to make their bodies pure energy is still essentially unexplained, the whole smokes and mirrors style presentation of them leads me to believe that they are just presenting themselves as something greater than what they actually are, capitalising on the primative understanding of both the GTVA and the UEF.
BP Multi
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Zacam: Uh. No, using an effect is okay. But you are literally using the TECHROOM ani as the weapon effect.

 

Offline niffiwan

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This bug affects the 3.6.16 stable release, and all other builds prior to the newest nightly build.

Whoa ... how long has it been like this? Are we talking about all the way since 3.6.12? Or even before?

Nope - the bug was not in 3.6.14.  It's in 3.6.16 and the Blueplanet builds, nothing else (I'm ignoring nightlies here, obviously it's in some of them)
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Offline CommanderDJ

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After playing BP1 I remember not liking the whole vishnan thing, because from our perspective as a human they do appear to be gods. They dictate what's right and what's wrong, they are all knowing, they are all powerful etc. More importantly, they are unexplained. They are just that force that seems to bring 'balance', a cheap plot point to connect the last puzzle piece.

So now in tenebra, we see the vishnans in a new light. They are the alien race who uses their technological dominace to act as gods, and from our perspective, their technology appears godlike. For some reason I can go for that a lot more easily. While the mechanism they use to make their bodies pure energy is still essentially unexplained, the whole smokes and mirrors style presentation of them leads me to believe that they are just presenting themselves as something greater than what they actually are, capitalising on the primative understanding of both the GTVA and the UEF.

Interesting. A lot of people seem to share your views on this. Just to stir the pot though, I on the other hand liked them in AoA when they were mysterious and unknowable, trying to help us, even. WiH has turned them into yet another villian out to complete their own agenda, which makes me sad. :(
[16:57] <CommanderDJ> What prompted the decision to split WiH into acts?
[16:58] <battuta> it was long, we wanted to release something
[16:58] <battuta> it felt good to have a target to hit
[17:00] <RangerKarl> not sure if talking about strike mission, or jerking off
[17:00] <CommanderDJ> WUT
[17:00] <CommanderDJ> hahahahaha
[17:00] <battuta> hahahaha
[17:00] <RangerKarl> same thing really, if you think about it

 

Offline General Battuta

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The Vishnans are (I quote from AoA)

Quote
a subspace stack entity, a sophisticated construct that exploits energy gradients in subspace to perform computation and cognition. Because subspace surrounds and connects universes, this entity exists outside time and space, and is capable of observing the entire space-time bulk. This grants it complete knowledge of all events past and future, although this knowledge may be hampered by quantum uncertainty. The origin of this entity is unknown, but we believe it may be artificial in nature.

Subspace is complete fantasy (which is ironic, because in the language you've been using, it's a science fiction trope), but it's a part of the FreeSpace universe we've been given. Science fiction often uses science to speculate about aspects of reality we have yet to discover or create. The Vishnans are a case of the application of the modern line of thought asserting that the universe can be described as mathematically isomorphic to a computational system - see t' Huft, Wolfram, Dyson, Tegmark, and a bunch of others. The physics of information allows us to assert fundamental laws about the manner and efficiency with which computation can be conducted, suggesting, in turn, that the end goal of engineering in the domain of advanced civilizations may be to create optimized substrates for computation.

The Vishnans use the energetic domain of subspace as a substrate for computation and (GTI speculates) exploit the Rietdijk–Putnam argument (a consequence of relativity at least a hundred years old) to obtain information outside what we perceive as the linear progress of time. Vishnan travel across universes falls into the category of Tegmark III movement across a Hilbert space within some subset of the Tegmark IV grand ensemble.

The Vishnans are an example of a civilization high on the Kardashev scale. A 'real' civilization of similar extent and power, operating in our subspaceless universe, might tap power sources like the ergospheres of rotating black holes to drive their computation. But in a universe with subspace, the most efficient substrate for computation may exist in subspace rather than realspace, making it the logical place to build a computational system. The Vishnans may have computational capabilities that exceed those bounded by our current understanding of computational theory, like notional oracles and hypercomputers.

The Nagari process shared by both the Vishnans and the Shivans is an artificial communication technique that exploits subspace to manipulate causal processes at range. Where the oft-employed device of EPR entanglement actually fails to transmit anything meaningful without a subluminal channel, Nagari shares the same cheat that permits subspace travel in the FreeSpace universe. To quote Ged from the Dreamscape,

Quote
Do you ever think about Nagari? What it means? A technology made to interface sentient minds across a subspace manifold...it's the kind of thing I imagine a powerful civilization building. To bind themselves together.

Nagari networks computational systems across subspace in the same way that we use the Internet to network computational systems across realspace. The protocols are Turing-compliant and dependent on the presence of a transmitter and receiver. If superluminal travel is possible in the FreeSpace universe, then superluminal transmission of information is by definition possible, and if, as we discussed above, advanced civilizations eventually concern themselves with optimizing computation - expanding their own ability to think towards the physical limits of computation - then they would use transmission through subspace as a way to hasten computation.

You assert that the Vishnans and Shivans are inherently more powerful than humans could ever hope to be. I am asserting, right here, that the Vishnans and Shivans exhibit some of the logical traits of a long-term civilization in the FreeSpace universe, a civilization that humanity would not only aspire to be but, given continued survival and progress, is likely to become. The offloading of computational processes into subspace and the use of subspace as a channel for the transmission of physical information are rational consequences of what we know about the real universe and what we know about the FreeSpace universe.

The Shivans are notable because their entire behavior as a macrospecies is an exemplar of a class of algorithm that operates on input to produce output. The input is the behavior of species they contact; the output is the destruction of those species. Like the Vishnans, the Shivans are fundamentally concerned with the processing of information, but in a very different way, on a very different substrate.

I mentioned before that the UEF, GTVA, and Vasudans all differ in the ways with which they attempt to manage uncertainty and circumvent problems of limited information. You can now add the Vishnans and Shivans to that constellation, each with their own solution.

Interesting. A lot of people seem to share your views on this. Just to stir the pot though, I on the other hand liked them in AoA when they were mysterious and unknowable, trying to help us, even. WiH has turned them into yet another villian out to complete their own agenda, which makes me sad. :(

Has WiH actually changed anything about the Vishnans? All that's different is that you now have two perspectives on them, rather than one. Why do you think they're not trying to help you?

 

Offline bigchunk1

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Ya that is strange that you say that, because I liked it when the shivans were unexplained... go figure.

The bosch thing is really cool though.
BP Multi
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Zacam: Uh. No, using an effect is okay. But you are literally using the TECHROOM ani as the weapon effect.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Even without the benefit of cheats like CTC computation, the resources available to advanced civilizations in the FreeSpace universe should make a hard takeoff singularity feasible. It's interesting to wonder why that hasn't occurred.

 

Offline An4ximandros

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That bosch thing? come on! At least put some effort man!
Spoiler:
Carlosch.

 

Offline niffiwan

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Even without the benefit of cheats like CTC computation, the resources available to advanced civilizations in the FreeSpace universe should make a hard takeoff singularity feasible. It's interesting to wonder why that hasn't occurred.

The Shivans kill 'em all off before they get there?  :)  Maybe the Brahmins (sp?) did get there and the Shivans Great Darkness is the result - and the Shivans are stopping it from happening again?

(and - I've had a fairly quick google search without much luck, what's a "hard takeoff" singularity? I'm assuming that "singularity" refers to a spontaneously forming AI?)
Creating a fs2_open.log | Red Alert Bug = Hex Edit | MediaVPs 2014: Bigger HUD gauges | 32bit libs for 64bit Ubuntu
----
Debian Packages (testing/unstable): Freespace2 | wxLauncher
----
m|m: I think I'm suffering from Stockholm syndrome. Bmpman is starting to make sense and it's actually written reasonably well...

 

Offline CommanderDJ

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Interesting. A lot of people seem to share your views on this. Just to stir the pot though, I on the other hand liked them in AoA when they were mysterious and unknowable, trying to help us, even. WiH has turned them into yet another villian out to complete their own agenda, which makes me sad. :(

Has WiH actually changed anything about the Vishnans? All that's different is that you now have two perspectives on them, rather than one. Why do you think they're not trying to help you?

Oh, they still are, but Tenebra's Universal Truth suggests that it's for their ends, not ours. In AoA, to me, it looked like the Vishnans were attempting to help the expeditionary force return home simply because they'd wandered into a universe that wasn't their own. That was it. They were the Great Preservers, the counterpart to the Great Destroyers. I guess I thought they were a species or entity (it's worth noting I never assumed they had once been a "normal", flesh-and-blood species like us)  that had learned to hold their own against the Shivans (or were created to be their antithesis) and were giving the expeditionary force a hand up out of the unfortunate circumstances they'd landed themselves into. Their actions weren't self-serving.

In WiH, we find that the expeditionary force's trip to the alternate universe wasn't an accident, and that the Vishnans have a plan, a design for us, and that's why they're helping us. Their design may not be all that bad, that remains to be seen, but ultimately it doesn't seem like it's our wellbeing they care for, it's their own agenda. Right now I want to like them like I did before, but WiH and Tenebra in particular have seeded doubts in my mind, so I'm apprehensive about it. Depending on what exactly their design and the whole Summed Psyche entails, I may yet change my stance.

Oh, and their voices are the coolest thing I have ever heard. That much is clear to me. :D

[16:57] <CommanderDJ> What prompted the decision to split WiH into acts?
[16:58] <battuta> it was long, we wanted to release something
[16:58] <battuta> it felt good to have a target to hit
[17:00] <RangerKarl> not sure if talking about strike mission, or jerking off
[17:00] <CommanderDJ> WUT
[17:00] <CommanderDJ> hahahahaha
[17:00] <battuta> hahahaha
[17:00] <RangerKarl> same thing really, if you think about it

 

Offline Apollo

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Well, it looks like you're right. Gotta stop arguing with devs.

This thread is entertaining, It reminds me of that one episode of the show "party down"

are you suggesting I'm gay
Current Project - Eos: The Coward's Blade. Coming Soon (hopefully.)