Author Topic: Naughty, China, very naughty...  (Read 9184 times)

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Offline MP-Ryan

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Naughty, China, very naughty...
Mandiant - a tech security firm - has released a detailed report tracing major cyberattacks on North American firms and critical infrastructure to the neighbourhood in Shanghai where a 'secret' Chinese army unit just happens to be based.

US Intelligence shows no surprise at this information, of course.  Remains to be seen what the US government is going to have to do about it now that an issue being kept under wraps before is splashed across the public domain.

Mandiant's report:  intelreport.mandiant.com/Mandiant_APT1_Report.pdf

A brief overview:  http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/chinese-army-tied-to-overwhelming-percentage-of-cyber-attacks-on-us-study/article8798250/
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Offline headdie

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Re: Naughty, China, very naughty...
bit of sabre rattling and back to their respective corners is all I expect with the US being implicated in state on state cyber attacks not all that long ago
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Offline Nemesis6

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Re: Naughty, China, very naughty...
Kind of silly of them to use their normal IP address -- or at least the one they've acquired in Shanghai -- during attacks...
« Last Edit: February 19, 2013, 03:27:09 pm by Nemesis6 »

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Naughty, China, very naughty...
This has been an open secret since the '90s.
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Offline yuezhi

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Re: Naughty, China, very naughty...
shamefur dispray!
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Offline karajorma

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Re: Naughty, China, very naughty...
bit of sabre rattling and back to their respective corners is all I expect with the US being implicated in state on state cyber attacks not all that long ago

Pretty much my take on it too. No one really has clean hands when it comes to this sort of thing.
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Offline Aardwolf

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Re: Naughty, China, very naughty...
Dislike because it will be used as justification for more anti-"cyber-terrorism" crap which will actually affect (if not target!) wikileaks/pirates/anons/occupy more than the actual "bad guys".

 
 

Offline karajorma

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Re: Naughty, China, very naughty...
This was the first news story on one of my news feeds in China.
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Re: Naughty, China, very naughty...
Ugh... I have mixed feelings about the article Karajorma posted.

I'm now going to post my take on it from my personal, biased point of view.
I'm going to have to state I know I might be wrong before I begin. This should be obvious in any discussion, but this time I want to state it clearly before any accusation to the contrary arises.

This will be a long post. I'm going to quote a lot on this one.
No offense intended in this post. Feel free to disregard it.



First and foremost, China Daily doesn't clearly states whether it is state-owned or not (yeah, I know, that's probably common in China and all).

This is what they say about themselves:

Quote
About Us
About China Daily Group

From print to digital media, from China to America, Europe, Africa and the rest of Asia, the China Daily Group, with 13 print publications, is an authoritative provider of information, analysis, comment and entertainment to global readers with a special focus on China.

[...]

This is the definition of "authoritative" by the Merriam Webster dictionary:

Quote
1
a : having or proceeding from authority : official <authoritative church doctrines>
b : clearly accurate or knowledgeable <an authoritative critique>
2
: dictatorial 2

It's not clear to me which of those China Daily claims to be.

This is an excerpt from Wikipedia, which I tend to trust more for reasons I've already stated in the past:

Quote
[...]

For the most part, the paper portrays the official policy of the PRC.[9] The editor of the paper has told foreign editors that the paper's editorial policy was to back the Party line and criticize the authorities only if there was deviation from party policy. Despite this, a number of editorials intend to give serious critical comments on both domestic and international issues.[7]

Foreign editors at the paper have been told that like most other state-owned enterprises, China Daily will no longer receive subsidies and the publication group is expected to steadily improve profit margins.

[...]

I've absolutely no concerns with state-owned media and/or media that defends a political position or an economical interest, just as long as they state it clearly and unambiguously.



Now, with that out of the way, on with the actual article. Because I haven't yet read the report from Mandiant, I'm going to give the China Daily the benefit of the doubt and assume as truth their claims that the Chinese military wasn't behind the attacks. Yet still:

First paragraph:
Quote
In the face of unfounded accusations by the United States that the Chinese government and military are behind cyberattacks on US websites, the Ministry of National Defense was quick to respond with a written statement on Tuesday and a news conference on Wednesday. This alone shows China's seriousness and sincerity in addressing cybersecurity.
Accusations are automatically assumed to be unfounded without a more detailed justification. No links to the written statement or the news conference. Their word alone isn't enough.

Second paragraph:
Quote
A report released by the US Internet security firm Mandiant on Monday claimed that cyberattacks against US websites were traced to a building in Shanghai owned by the Chinese army. But given that hackers' origins are transnational, deceptive and anonymous, the report failed to produce any convincing evidence that its occupants were behind the attacks. It is unprofessional as well as irresponsible for the US firm to base its allegations on such shaky ground.
True, but still, the Chinese government has a... let's call it "moral obligation" with the international community to work towards strengthening the security of their share of the internet network. They're a state, it's their job to prevent crime within it's borders. And while no one is perfect, they do have a share of the responsibility for the attacks nonetheless.

Third and fourth paragraphs: No disagreement on these.

Fifth and sixth paragraphs:
Quote
"This round of US accusations against China is nothing new as the country has been regularly targeted as the home of hackers in recent years. But with the so-called China cybersabotage and espionage continuing to make headlines in the US media this week, one cannot help but ask the real purpose of such a hullabaloo.

With the US economic recovery dragging its feet, it is reasonable to think that some in Washington may want to make China a scapegoat so that the public's attention is diverted away from the country's domestic woes. "
Far be it from me to deny the fierce lobbying of the western media on western governments and their vicious effects on its societies. That still doesn't excuse China from it's responsibilities in this case. This is pretty close to an ad hominem.

Rest of the paragraphs:
Quote
The Pentagon's plans to expand its Cyber Command, as revealed by the US media recently, might also shed some light on the myth. The Washington Post reported last month that the Pentagon had decided to expand Cyber Command's current staffing level of 900 to 4,900 in the coming years. Apart from protecting national computer systems, [...]
The United States, like any other nation, have a right to provide for themselves a defense force of whatever size and composition they believe necessary. It's an internal affair between the U.S. government, its population, and any other party with which they may have signed an agreement regarding these issues. As far as I know, there is nothing here to protest against.

Quote
[...] the missions of the command also include executing attacks and other offensive operations.

Interestingly, when the Cyber Command was established two years ago, the US played the same card.

Hence, it is reasonable to conclude that by whipping up cybersabotage by China time and time again the US is just using it to develop its own cyber force.
No disagreements here.



What I miss from the article:
  • Links to sources in the first paragraph.
  • A clear indication that this is an editorial.

What would be nice too, since there is no link to the official statements:
  • Details about the Chinese State's actions so far (enacted policy, some details of the security force assigned to cybersecurity, money spent on cybersecurity, etc.)
  • An statement about their projected actions from this point onwards.



That's all.

 

Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: Naughty, China, very naughty...
el_magnifico, China Daily is a state-controlled news agency, and basically the official English-language mouthpiece of the Chinese government.  Nobody takes anything they say seriously when it comes to international relations or Chinese government policy (other than it usually deflects criticism from it and/or justifies it).
"In the beginning, the Universe was created.  This made a lot of people very angry and has widely been regarded as a bad move."  [Douglas Adams]

 
Re: Naughty, China, very naughty...
el_magnifico, China Daily is a state-controlled news agency, and basically the official English-language mouthpiece of the Chinese government.
It will not be me who rejects an article from the China Daily just because they're state-owned or officially endorsed. As I said before, my criticism towards them is not that they defend the Chinese State views, but that they don't state that clearly and openly. This is a common standard I apply to all information sources (both public and private), not a personal gripe with the China Daily or any other state-owned news agency.

Quote
Nobody takes anything they say seriously when it comes to international relations or Chinese government policy (other than it usually deflects criticism from it and/or justifies it).

Who, exactly, is this Nobody you speak of, and why is his opinion always held in such a high regard? :p Perhaps his unfortunate name has made him a little shy, but I tend to dislike it when people speak on his behalf. :lol:

Seriously though, I'm not a fan of the "you're wrong because you're wrong / because it's common knowledge or public opinion that you're wrong" approach. I like to hear to everyone and analyse things thoroughly from their very root. Just stating "it's the public consensus that they're wrong", without any statistical data to prove it and without even discussing the issue, is far too easy and usually inaccurate.
Again, my criticisms derive from a common standard I apply to all information sources, not from a personal dislike of the China Daily.

 
Re: Naughty, China, very naughty...
China Daily is a state-run newspaper in a highly authoritarian government that loves censorship and filtering of the truth to make them look better.  Why would you even consider taking them seriously?
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17:37:11   SpardaSon21: even the males?
17:37:22   Quanto: its not gay if its an elf

[21:51] <@Droid803> I now realize
[21:51] <@Droid803> this will be SLIIIIIGHTLY awkward
[21:51] <@Droid803> as this rich psychic girl will now be tsundere for a loli.
[21:51] <@Droid803> OH WELLL.

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[07:57:32] <Caiaphas> inspired by HerraTohtori i built a supermaneuverable plane in ksp
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[07:58:19] <Caiaphas> apparently people can't take 20 gees for 5 continuous seconds
[08:00:11] <Caiaphas> the plane however performed admirably, and only crashed because it no longer had any guidance systems

 
Re: Naughty, China, very naughty...
China Daily is a state-run newspaper in a highly authoritarian government that loves censorship and filtering of the truth to make them look better.  Why would you even consider taking them seriously?
Because I presume my opinion is right, I don't need to be afraid of theirs. Denying a discussion on the base that they are "the bad guys" isn't going to take either of us anywhere.

 
Re: Naughty, China, very naughty...
China Daily is a state-run newspaper in a highly authoritarian government that loves censorship and filtering of the truth to make them look better.  Why would you even consider taking them seriously?
Because I presume my opinion is right, I don't need to be afraid of theirs. Denying a discussion on the base that they are "the bad guys" isn't going to take either of us anywhere.

There's a difference between describing a source as not credible (or having a conflict of interest) and describing them as "the bad guys".

 
Re: Naughty, China, very naughty...
"Bad guys" has nothing to do with this.  China Daily is run by a group of people solely interested in making China and the Chinese government look good, or if not good better than everyone else.  I wouldn't trust a newspaper run by the American government either since it too would be solely interested in making the current administration look good.
17:37:02   Quanto: I want to have sexual intercourse with every space elf in existence
17:37:11   SpardaSon21: even the males?
17:37:22   Quanto: its not gay if its an elf

[21:51] <@Droid803> I now realize
[21:51] <@Droid803> this will be SLIIIIIGHTLY awkward
[21:51] <@Droid803> as this rich psychic girl will now be tsundere for a loli.
[21:51] <@Droid803> OH WELLL.

See what you're missing in #WoD and #Fsquest?

[07:57:32] <Caiaphas> inspired by HerraTohtori i built a supermaneuverable plane in ksp
[07:57:43] <Caiaphas> i just killed my pilots with a high-g maneuver
[07:58:19] <Caiaphas> apparently people can't take 20 gees for 5 continuous seconds
[08:00:11] <Caiaphas> the plane however performed admirably, and only crashed because it no longer had any guidance systems

 
Re: Naughty, China, very naughty...
China Daily is a state-run newspaper in a highly authoritarian government that loves censorship and filtering of the truth to make them look better.  Why would you even consider taking them seriously?
Because I presume my opinion is right, I don't need to be afraid of theirs. Denying a discussion on the base that they are "the bad guys" isn't going to take either of us anywhere.

There's a difference between describing a source as not credible (or having a conflict of interest) and describing them as "the bad guys".
Then tell me, by whose standards is the China Daily not credible? The principle is the same: stigmatizing a source instead of replying to it.
I don't trust most of the western media either. Still doesn't means I'm not going to debate it.

If any of you choose not to discuss a source because you don't consider it reliable, that's fine with me. But Karajorma, who I respect very much, posted that article. And I assumed the challenge of replying to it while respecting China's presumption of innocence, without unnecessary stigmatization and prejudices. And it's still on topic. I fail to see why even discussing something can be so polemical (especially when what I actually did was to refute it thoroughly).

"Bad guys" has nothing to do with this.  China Daily is run by a group of people solely interested in making China and the Chinese government look good, or if not good better than everyone else.  I wouldn't trust a newspaper run by the American government either since it too would be solely interested in making the current administration look good.
Problem is, the nature of the capital doesn't necessarily relate to the trustability of the information. By the same principle, I would have to consider the BBC to be mostly unreliable, and the CNN to be mostly reliable. And I don't agree with such assessments.

 

Offline Aardwolf

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Re: Naughty, China, very naughty...
What is this "replying to" business? When an occupying power dumps leaflets from an airplane flying over your town and you pick one up to read it, do you then attempt to engage the airplane in serious debate?

 

Offline Polpolion

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Re: Naughty, China, very naughty...
Who, exactly, is this Nobody you speak of, and why is his opinion always held in such a high regard? :p Perhaps his unfortunate name has made him a little shy, but I tend to dislike it when people speak on his behalf. :lol:

Nobody is actually a man named Greg. He takes the China Daily very seriously.

 
Re: Naughty, China, very naughty...
El_magnifico, you're not getting this.  China has no free press.  The newspapers all say what the Chinese government wants them to say, and that's including the "independent" ones.  China Daily can go and say whatever it wants because nobody in China is going call them on anything, not unless that editor wants to go to a Chinese prison, or perhaps just shot if the government decides he's not worth incarcerating.

So actually yes, "bad guys" does factor into this because the Chinese government doesn't really allow dissenting viewpoints in its populace. :P
17:37:02   Quanto: I want to have sexual intercourse with every space elf in existence
17:37:11   SpardaSon21: even the males?
17:37:22   Quanto: its not gay if its an elf

[21:51] <@Droid803> I now realize
[21:51] <@Droid803> this will be SLIIIIIGHTLY awkward
[21:51] <@Droid803> as this rich psychic girl will now be tsundere for a loli.
[21:51] <@Droid803> OH WELLL.

See what you're missing in #WoD and #Fsquest?

[07:57:32] <Caiaphas> inspired by HerraTohtori i built a supermaneuverable plane in ksp
[07:57:43] <Caiaphas> i just killed my pilots with a high-g maneuver
[07:58:19] <Caiaphas> apparently people can't take 20 gees for 5 continuous seconds
[08:00:11] <Caiaphas> the plane however performed admirably, and only crashed because it no longer had any guidance systems