Author Topic: Chivalry in war  (Read 13276 times)

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Offline General Battuta

  • Poe's Law In Action
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I read this article and got very choked up

Quote
As Stigler's fighter rose to meet the [American] bomber, he decided to attack it from behind. He climbed behind the sputtering bomber, squinted into his gun sight and placed his hand on the trigger. He was about to fire when he hesitated. Stigler was baffled. No one in the bomber fired at him.

He looked closer at the tail gunner. He was still, his white fleece collar soaked with blood. Stigler craned his neck to examine the rest of the bomber. Its skin had been peeled away by shells, its guns knocked out. He could see men huddled inside the plane tending the wounds of other crewmen.

Then he nudged his plane alongside the bomber's wings and locked eyes with the pilot whose eyes were wide with shock and horror.

Stigler pressed his hand over the rosary he kept in his flight jacket. He eased his index finger off the trigger. He couldn't shoot. It would be murder.

 
Unfortunately, it's people that are noble like this that are most likely to be killed first in a war. For every case like this, there are probably hundreds where the plane was simply shot down. We may hope for a world in which combat is honourable, but from the medieval days when "chivalry" meant to slaughter entire towns but keep nobility alive because they could pay you ransom, to modern asymmetrical warfare where not shooting a child with a bomb could be a fatal decision, honourable things like that are an exception. An exception that one should still try to make the norm whenever possible. Avoiding war completely should - IMO - always be the more important thing.

But in the context of a work of fiction, it is a more interesting thing to ponder. BP, or at the very least BP:WiH is not a power fantasy of a victorious and noble hero in a romanticised war like many other game stories tend to be, so what role does chivalry play for the decisions the player does here? It is hard, because it all depends on how immersed you feel. Whatever you do, you will never really kill someone in this game. You will never really make a family lose their child/parent. It is also hard to feel the kinship and comradery with an enemy that is in the end only virtual, but it is also hard to feel the pure terror that would maybe drive you to do the horrible things you may have to do in war situations.

We are also conditioned to act differently in games than IRL. Often games unrealistically favour honourable decisions to teach good behaviour, or on the other hand, they may have next to no repercussions for bad behaviour in the case of cathartic power fantasies. So, our way of thinking tends to be different for a game world to begin with.

So in the end, what did you feel when commiting atrocities here? Was it "because it's just a game", did you do it because you thought it'd be naïve not to, maybe because of a genuine hatred for your enemy, or did you try everything you could to keep up your own moral code even inside the game? And what consequences do you think your actions had for the game world, and would you have done the same in a real world?

Also, the way they portray the warrior code in this article as something that is there to protect both the defeated and the victor is very interesting. I think it was in this forum, where I said that I could both understand the Feyadeen, but am also sort of afraid of them because of what they may become after the war ends whichever way it ends. On the one hand, you may sacrifice your ultimate goal if you do not commit atrocities in wars, on the other hand, you may really - as cliché as it may sound - lose yourself and lose what you wanted to protect just by doing what was necessary to win the war. A war like the 30 years war for example left a whole generation traumatized and twisted, and even if it had ended wit one side clearly victorious, it'd still just make the small difference of catholic or protestant families that had suffered through this. Without compassion for your fellow man and even your enemy, you may win the war, but be left with a world that was not worth winning the war for.

 

Offline MatthTheGeek

  • Captain Obvious
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Shouldn't that be in GenDisc.
People are stupid, therefore anything popular is at best suspicious.

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666maslo666: Releasing a finished product is not a good thing! It is a modern fad.

SpardaSon21: it seems like you exist in a permanent state of half-joking misanthropy

Axem: when you put it like that, i sound like an insane person

bigchunk1: it's not retarded it's american!
bigchunk1: ...

batwota: steele's maneuvering for the coup de gras
MatthTheGeek: you mispelled grâce
Awaesaar: grace
batwota: oh right :P
Darius: ah!
Darius: yes, i like that
MatthTheGeek: the way you just spelled it it means fat
Awaesaar: +accent I forgot how to keyboard
MatthTheGeek: or grease
Darius: the killing fat!
Axem: jabba does the coup de gras
MatthTheGeek: XD
Axem: bring me solo and a cookie

 

Offline General Battuta

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Nope, as Nyarlathotep's excellent post evinces.

 

Offline MatthTheGeek

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so what, just because there's an excellent post in it means it belongs to BP and nowhere else ? Way to go on your high horse, dude.
People are stupid, therefore anything popular is at best suspicious.

Mod management tools     -     Wiki stuff!     -     Help us help you

666maslo666: Releasing a finished product is not a good thing! It is a modern fad.

SpardaSon21: it seems like you exist in a permanent state of half-joking misanthropy

Axem: when you put it like that, i sound like an insane person

bigchunk1: it's not retarded it's american!
bigchunk1: ...

batwota: steele's maneuvering for the coup de gras
MatthTheGeek: you mispelled grâce
Awaesaar: grace
batwota: oh right :P
Darius: ah!
Darius: yes, i like that
MatthTheGeek: the way you just spelled it it means fat
Awaesaar: +accent I forgot how to keyboard
MatthTheGeek: or grease
Darius: the killing fat!
Axem: jabba does the coup de gras
MatthTheGeek: XD
Axem: bring me solo and a cookie

 

Offline qwadtep

  • 28
This is why I spared the Carthage.

Thread is now BP-related.

 

Offline General Battuta

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so what, just because there's an excellent post in it means it belongs to BP and nowhere else ? Way to go on your high horse, dude.

Au contraire, it is because it is an excellent post on the very topics that BP is so often concerned with.

 

Offline crizza

  • 210
This is why I spared the Carthage, ordered my wingmen to kill the fellow UEF pilots and so on.

 

Offline Apollo

  • 28
  • Free Market Fascist
I spared the Carthage and the GEFs, but I killed the UEF pilots myself because having my wingmen do it would just be self-deception.

The fact that BP is just a game motivates me to be as honorable as I can, since naivety in this case has no actual consequences.
Current Project - Eos: The Coward's Blade. Coming Soon (hopefully.)

 

Offline Crybertrance

  • 29
  • Conventional warheads only, no funny business
I spared the Carthage and the GEFs, but I killed the UEF pilots myself because having my wingmen do it would just be self-deception.

The fact that BP is just a game motivates me to be as honorable as I can, since naivety in this case has no actual consequences.

Amen.
<21:08:30>   Hartzaden fires a slammer at Cybertrance
<21:09:13>   Crybertrance pops flares, but wonders how Hartzaden acquired aspect lock on a stealth fighter... :\
<21:11:58>   *** The_E joined #bp [email protected]
21:11:58   +++ ChanServ has given op to The_E
<21:12:58>   Hartzaden continues to paint crybertrance and feeding the info to a wing of gunships
<21:14:07>   Crybertrance sends emergency "IM GETING MY ASS KICKED HERE!!!!eleventy NEED HELPZZZZ" to 3rd fleet command
<21:14:50>   Hartzaden jamms the transmission.
<21:14:51>   The_E explodes the sun

  

Offline Frak_Tastic

  • 26
  • Giggity Giggity Fracker!
As someone who went to war, I can tell you that every decision & action you make is a best guess.

One can read that WWII story and say "Wow that was chivalrous!", but WW2 was a long time ago.  If that had happened yesterday I'm willing to be the German pilot would have been severely punished for not killing yet another bomber crew responsible for the deaths of hundreds of German citizens.  I'm also certain that the German pilot kept his mouth shut about sparing an American aircrew when he returned home for his debrief.  On the obverse, it's just as likely the American pilot returned to duty to continue his bombing runs until the end of the conflict, killing hundreds, if not thousands of Germans.

Jumping into the BP verse (and like real life), Laporte's actions are deemed as being "good" only by those on her side.  However, if the UEF loses, her head will be on the chopping block as one of their elite pilots.  I doubt the GTVA is just going to parole their prisoners at the end of the war and let them go back to their lives.  Remember all of the escape pods she tagged from trying to escape the logistics ships?  I'd call that a war crime.

In WWII, most German prisoners were kept for an additional 2 years by the US after the war.  The Russians kept them until 1950ish.  Given that Laporte is a Fedayeen, she'll probably never see the light of day again, like most Waffen SS troops.

On that note, I spared the Carthage in the game.  Why?  Because it was a s**tload of GTVA advanced tech and a semi-worthwhile space-frame that could be used for anything.  Not to mention high ranking prisoners that could be interrogated and prove useful later.  It was a decision purely about the acquisition & denial of resources to the enemy -  "Saving lives" wasn't a thought.  Those people put on the uniform, they made the choice, even if they were conscripts.

The warrior in me has a very hard time sympathizing with the enemy in the here and now.  I would not spare them, and I would expect no less from them to me; that's the price of carrying the sword in anger.  Maybe old age will soften that one day, but I can't predict the future.

 
This is why I spared the Carthage, ordered my wingmen to kill the fellow UEF pilots and so on.

i spared the carthage but dammit i've been itching for an excuse to shoot feds since the end of aoa, i'm not about to pass that sort of opportunity up
The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell.

 

Offline Mars

  • I have no originality
  • 211
  • Attempting unreasonable levels of reasonable
Isn't this how mutually beneficial patterns in iterated games are formed? Like in WWI where opposing trenches would often intentionally shell in similar patterns every night and troops would not fire on each other?

(One side tats, so the other side tats, etc.)

 
On the obverse, it's just as likely the American pilot returned to duty to continue his bombing runs until the end of the conflict, killing hundreds, if not thousands of Germans.

That's another excellent point to make. You may spare someone because you think of it as the right thing to do, but the live you save may cost you, and innocent people as well, even more later on.

On that note, I spared the Carthage in the game.  Why?  Because it was a s**tload of GTVA advanced tech and a semi-worthwhile space-frame that could be used for anything.  Not to mention high ranking prisoners that could be interrogated and prove useful later.  It was a decision purely about the acquisition & denial of resources to the enemy -  "Saving lives" wasn't a thought.  Those people put on the uniform, they made the choice, even if they were conscripts.

That was excactly my reasoning. I was in full-on cynical "no-mercy" mode at that point, but I was not out for revenge, and the Carthage seemed like a valuable asset. I guess another thought about the matter is: You can be without mercy, but also still trying to avoid unecessary cruelty. There is a difference between killing helpless people in cold blood to achieve victory in a war, and killing them out of rage/revenge/sadism etc.

This leads to another thing, that is probably one of the biggest thoughts about behaviour in basically any situation: Do you do something because you feel like it out of intuition, anger, compassion, etc. Or maybe you do something because you want to achieve a clearly defined goal. Or maybe you do something because you have a certain set of principles that you apply to a situation, no matter how the consequences may be or how you feel about it.

This is why I spared the Carthage, ordered my wingmen to kill the fellow UEF pilots and so on.

Now this is especially interesting, because ordering someone to do your dirty work is something extremely common. The ones that do the deed can claim they were just following orders, and the ones giving orders don't actually have to do the deed themselves. So, in a way no one is truly absolved of their crime, but both parties feel better commiting it. Others may have thought different at that point, and would have thought something like: "If someone has to do it, I will do it myself, so no one else will get tangled up in this", thinking that killing them yourself is the more moral choice. (Only where not killing them at all is not a choice, of course)

Now, I think this derails the discussion a bit, towards more of a general "ethics in games" line of thought, but I also had a few more thoughts about moral behaviour in games.

Inside this game universe of course there is the problem, that if you want to advance in the game, you may have to do such things. There is no alternative that allows you to completely spare those virtual people and the story will have you hooked, so you really want to know what happens next. So in a way, to act "moral" you'd have to abandon your game, rejecting both the choice to kill or to order to kill someone, at the price of never being able to finish a great game.

That's bull**** in a way of course, in the end you can always say "oh, those aren't real people, just some 1s and 0s", and especially with a story as suspenseful as in BP, you probably won't be able to resist trying to know what will happen, and how it will happen. But if you were truly and completely disturbed by the thought of doing horrible things yourself - even inside a game - you'd actually have to do it.

I don't think anyone would do this in BP, but it is at least imagineable. It's like walking out on a movie in the theatre out of protest. But even there, you may only witness outrageously bad acts or horrible quality in directing or something, you may never have to pull a trigger yourself. Games do take it one step beyond in that respect. I think with other games, this has probably happened before, and not just angry parents returning the cool game their children want to play, but honestly people abandoning and/or returning a game they could not finish, because of something conflicting with their moral principles. It probably isn't a common thing, but I'd say it does happen from time to time.

 

Offline Fury

  • The Curmudgeon
  • 213
I agree with Matth, this should have been in gen disc as it has no relation to BP. Otherwise you could have posted this in Diaspora, Wings of Dawn or any other project's board and presented same argument, but it doesn't make the topic any more relevant to the board in question.

 

Offline qwadtep

  • 28
On the obverse, it's just as likely the American pilot returned to duty to continue his bombing runs until the end of the conflict, killing hundreds, if not thousands of Germans.

That's another excellent point to make. You may spare someone because you think of it as the right thing to do, but the live you save may cost you, and innocent people as well, even more later on.
I think this boils down to a more basic moral question--whether it's right to preemptively kill an innocent who you know will kill in the future. It's also further complicated by the fact that the German pilot is guilty of the same sin.

 

Offline General Battuta

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I agree with Matth, this should have been in gen disc as it has no relation to BP. Otherwise you could have posted this in Diaspora, Wings of Dawn or any other project's board and presented same argument, but it doesn't make the topic any more relevant to the board in question.

Nope, this article is about the very heart of the things BP2 concerns itself with. And this thread has been really amazing at teasing out the ambiguity and conflict herein.

 

Offline Luis Dias

  • 211
The german pilot's attitude would have been sneered at by WiH act 3 Laporte. Ants, why should we bother that they bleed.

 

Offline Rodo

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Nope, this article is about the very heart of the things BP2 concerns itself with. And this thread has been really amazing at teasing out the ambiguity and conflict herein.

You could do that with almost every topic of conversation related to war themes.

I don't particularly see a problem with this being discussed on BP's forums and I don't really mind, but the way you started the thread makes it feel that it belongs to Gen Disc.
el hombre vicio...

 

Offline General Battuta

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Nope, this article is about the very heart of the things BP2 concerns itself with. And this thread has been really amazing at teasing out the ambiguity and conflict herein.

You could do that with almost every topic of conversation related to war themes.

I don't particularly see a problem with this being discussed on BP's forums and I don't really mind, but the way you started the thread makes it feel that it belongs to Gen Disc.

I'm sorry you feel that way. I don't think GenDisc is a good environment to get at what's really interesting about this piece. Please contribute to keeping the quality of this thread high by staying on topic.

The german pilot's attitude would have been sneered at by WiH act 3 Laporte. Ants, why should we bother that they bleed.

I think this is part of what's so interesting about it. It's clearly an irrational move, from the standpoint of a warfighter or an agent invested in the success of one side in a conflict. That bomber and crew are going to do some amount of damage to materiel and lives in the near future, and that damage can be prevented right now at very limited cost.

But he doesn't do it.

Is that refusal itself rational? Is there some long-term societal payoff to a code of chivalry that makes this sacrifice worth it? Maybe the wiggle room available to a fighter to decline acts of extreme or psychologically difficult violence makes them more effective on net. (This is something the UEF certainly seems to have struggled with in this war.) But he didn't really have that wiggle room - standing policy was to punish this kind of softness towards the enemy.