[Mobius]

This has been stuck in my head for quite some time. Imagine that a GTVA citizen in, let's say, Barnard's Star has to go to Delta Serpentis; there must be some way to do it other than being a military officer transferred from one system to another. There must be a space lining and cargo service connecting GTVA systems. Forcing citizens in their system would pretty much sound like a dictatorship.

The question is, considering what we know about subspace, space installations and space colonization, how would civilian transport work in FreeSpace? Do you believe there'd be small liners in each system serving as feeders for larger liners meant for intersystem travel? Would liners pretty much ignore space installations and land on/take off from space ports on the surface instead? Would liners spend most of the time in subspace? What authority would regulate civilian traffic in GTVA space?

Would such a service be affordable for the average GTVA citizen? Also, do you believe it would be a deregulated business, with independent spacelines in competition, or a GTVA-owned service mainly maintained by taxes? didn't tell us anything about the subject but, as many of you probably know, liners were mentioned in our beloved FS3 wishlist.

More variety in ships! We still don't have Vasudan or Shivan installations, or civilian traffic at all. Where are the huge cruise liners? The speedy little civvies craft that so love to wander into war zones? And so on.

[MatthTheGeek]

GTT Elysium is canonically a vessel used "to transport civilian and military personnel from one star system to another". Given its size it can probably carry as much, or more, passengers than your average Boeing 737. Sounds like a good basis for civilian "airlines", but there would probably be more, in-universe, than this one canonical example.

The question is, considering what we know about subspace, space installations and space colonization, how would civilian transport work in FreeSpace? Do you believe there'd be small liners in each system serving as feeders for larger liners meant for intersystem travel? Would liners pretty much ignore space installations and land on/take off from space ports on the surface instead? Would liners spend most of the time in subspace? What authority would regulate civilian traffic in GTVA space?

Would such a service be affordable for the average GTVA citizen? Also, do you believe it would be a deregulated business, with independent spacelines in competition, or a GTVA-owned service mainly maintained by taxes?

All this is entirely up to the campaign maker I believe. Lots of different way to put it, depending on what era, on what kind of atmosphere you want to set up, etc.

[blowfish]

While we don't know for sure, it's possible that even in the FS2 era, intersystem subspace drives are still somewhat expensive for civilians.  This means that intersystem liners would spend most of their time going between systems rather than wasting that drive ferrying people around within a system.  So these liners would probably dock with installations, or smaller transports would dock with them in order to take people to multiple destinations within a system.

[yuezhi]

Let's ask the guy(s) who've already modelled a space liner for Freespace. Only i don't remember what it's called and what campaign it's from.

[The E]

I think that intersystem travel in the GTVA is kinda similar to intercontinental travel ca 1900. It's a big deal if you do it, and few people do it regularly. Reason being that all terran systems, without exception, are very young colony worlds; I would imagine people are needed where they are.

That being said, I do believe that there's enough of a market for civillian shipping so that there are a few dedicated passenger liners, and limited passenger accommodations aboard freighters that make regular runs between systems. In that model, people would go up to a transfer station somewhere in planetary orbit, hop onto the next ship bound for whatever system they want to go to, and disembark at a transfer station at the other end.

(I can see why never mentioned this anywhere. It's simply not important for the storytelling in FS1 or 2; there's no conceivable situation within the missions of those games where adding a purely civillian ship would have made much sense.)

Now, regarding the economics of buying a ticket to another star system, I would assume it's somewhere between a transatlantic ticket on the Titanic, and a ticket for a Concorde flight ca 1970. A big sum, one you would not pay lightly, but one that is affordable if you plan for it in advance.

While we don't know for sure, it's possible that even in the FS2 era, intersystem subspace drives are still somewhat expensive for civilians.  This means that intersystem liners would spend most of their time going between systems rather than wasting that drive ferrying people around within a system.  So these liners would probably dock with installations, or smaller transports would dock with them in order to take people to multiple destinations within a system.

Actually, the solution to that issue would be a fleet of tugs stationed at both ends of a Node, ferrying ships across as needed. I do believe that at the time of FS2 at least, most of the newer ships would have interstellar-capable drives installed.

[Lorric]

Shivans/pirates would enjoy blowing them up. We probably wouldn't enjoy having to protect them. That's how they'd work 

[The E]

Shivans/pirates would enjoy blowing them up. We probably wouldn't enjoy having to protect them. That's how they'd work 

That makes no sense.

Okay, granted, I can't see Shivans hesitating to blow up freighters, but I would imagine that the GTVA will snap into full paranoia "protect everything and recall everything we can't protect" mode as soon as Shivans are sighted.

As for Pirates? It makes absolutely no sense for them to murder people.
Let's think about piracy in the FS universe for a moment. A successful pirate needs a ship that has a jump drive, preferably one that is interstellar-capable. He also needs a way to make sure that whatever ship he is pirating at the moment cannot signal for aid (Because in FS, all points in a solar system are equidistant for a subspace-capable ship), unless he is well-equipped enough to deal with a flight of fighters. He also needs to maintain that silence for as long as it takes to take over the ship, recharge the jump drives, and jump away.

Now, all of this technology is not cheap. If said pirate wants to finance his operations, he needs to capture enough loot to break even, and I would imagine that that would be somewhat harder if he manages to get a reputation to be a killer that needs to be stopped. The tactical and strategic situation in FS is not very friendly for pirates.

[Lorric]

Shivans/pirates would enjoy blowing them up. We probably wouldn't enjoy having to protect them. That's how they'd work 

That makes no sense.

Okay, granted, I can't see Shivans hesitating to blow up freighters, but I would imagine that the GTVA will snap into full paranoia "protect everything and recall everything we can't protect" mode as soon as Shivans are sighted.

As for Pirates? It makes absolutely no sense for them to murder people.
Let's think about piracy in the FS universe for a moment. A successful pirate needs a ship that has a jump drive, preferably one that is interstellar-capable. He also needs a way to make sure that whatever ship he is pirating at the moment cannot signal for aid (Because in FS, all points in a solar system are equidistant for a subspace-capable ship), unless he is well-equipped enough to deal with a flight of fighters. He also needs to maintain that silence for as long as it takes to take over the ship, recharge the jump drives, and jump away.

Now, all of this technology is not cheap. If said pirate wants to finance his operations, he needs to capture enough loot to break even, and I would imagine that that would be somewhat harder if he manages to get a reputation to be a killer that needs to be stopped. The tactical and strategic situation in FS is not very friendly for pirates.

Yes, in a logical sense, it indeed makes no sense.

But how many games have you played, whether Freespace or not, where pirates and thieves arrive to attack something you are protecting, where their logical goal would be to take something from within, yet if you fail, they just blow it up? I would say the number where they blow it up outnumbers the instances where they actually do what real thieves would do.

The real point I was trying to make though, is however they work in game, that's what it will boil down to in your encounters with them. Protection missions.

If anyone does want to use them for something else though somehow, Freespace never goes into any details on the workings of civilian life at all I don't think, so you'd have a free hand to spell out any story you'd want. Create any company or vessel or set of rules. Well, short of civillian vessels blowing up Shivan capital ships! 

[headdie]

Piracy would defiantly be better served using transports and freighters using intimidate, snatch and grab tactics.

End of the day the pirates need to eat and keep their ships running which all takes money, out right destruction only serves them if they are able to ransom someone to keep the target safe or they are paid to cause said destruction by an outside party.  Otherwise they need people, ships and or goods to hold hostage or black market where possible.

[Mebber]

I guess the bulk of intersystem personal transfer would be managed by really huge but not very comfortable liners, which are stationed at spaceborn starports, or probably the Arcadias, near the system jump node. They travel on the ever-same route between two star systems. The citizens would have to board smaller transports and shuttles to actually reach the space stations and the liners. I think the traffic chaos would be too great if the people would use the smaller transports and shuttles for intersystem travel - there's just one node between two systems, and if it's a highly frequented route, the node entry- and exitpoints could easily become traffic bottlenecks if entire flottilas of small civilian craft want to travel from one system to another at the same time. And the administrative effort to coordinate such great numbers of small ships (who is allowed to enter the node at which point) would be quite costly, and there would be a far greater risk of space accidents, so i think the idea with huges liners is more applicable.

The use of the nodes could be further regulated by node charges, with higher charges for more frequently used nodes and reduced prices for ships flying with a commercial license. This way more far-off systems who doesen't have big traffic or aren't integrated in the big liner- and freighter trading lines wouldn't be hampered by the node charges, which would be bad for their economic growth. And really far-off systems with only a couple of mining colonies would probably have very low traffic at all, maybe just a supply ship once a month, so if some civilian really wants to fly to or from those colonoies he's got to wait some weeks until the next freighter goes, and it's a quite uncomfortable way to travel.

It's probably all a matter of money, just like in real life - the regular poor citizen has to use the crowded, cheap mass transporters to get from one system to another and has to change ships every system, while the richer guys can afford to use smaller express vehicles who travel directly through different systems without the need to change ships or wait on the next spaceport for the departure of the next liner. And the really poor guys have to travel as "additional cargo" in an empty corner of a cargo freighter.

Wow, 8 new replies. I should learn to write faster.

[Lorric]

Piracy would defiantly be better served using transports and freighters using intimidate, snatch and grab tactics.

End of the day the pirates need to eat and keep their ships running which all takes money, out right destruction only serves them if they are able to ransom someone to keep the target safe or they are paid to cause said destruction by an outside party.  Otherwise they need people, ships and or goods to hold hostage or black market where possible.

Yes, ready goods to snatch and grab are the best for pirates. Civilian freighters and cargo tugs tend to fall under attack the most within games and missions of this nature. You would think spacefaring civilians would be wealthy though. The best scenario for such a situation would then be for pirates to attack a high end civilian transport, perhaps something along the lines of a pleasure cruiser today, in space. Might be fun for a modeller to design such a thing. It would be something quite different. The people aboard can be ransacked for a quick raid and ransomed for something more long term, along with the vessel itself, which would likely be worth a hell of a lot as well, Somali pirate style.

[An4ximandros]

Piracy would be better served by not existing at all in space!

/Rant

As for liners, we have no canon definition, I suggest keeping it like that as it adds 'customization' to campaign environments. Voting on some sort of 'default' system would add extra work for the 'writers' to explain that it does not work that way in their story.

[Lorric]

I guess the bulk of intersystem personal transfer would be managed by really huge but not very comfortable liners, which are stationed at spaceborn starports, or probably the Arcadias, near the system jump node. They travel on the ever-same route between two star systems. The citizens would have to board smaller transports and shuttles to actually reach the space stations and the liners. I think the traffic chaos would be too great if the people would use the smaller transports and shuttles for intersystem travel - there's just one node between two systems, and if it's a highly frequented route, the node entry- and exitpoints could easily become traffic bottlenecks if entire flottilas of small civilian craft want to travel from one system to another at the same time. And the administrative effort to coordinate such great numbers of small ships (who is allowed to enter the node at which point) would be quite costly, and there would be a far greater risk of space accidents, so i think the idea with huges liners is more applicable.

The use of the nodes could be further regulated by node charges, with higher charges for more frequently used nodes and reduced prices for ships flying with a commercial license. This way more far-off systems who doesen't have big traffic or aren't integrated in the big liner- and freighter trading lines wouldn't be hampered by the node charges, which would be bad for their economic growth. And really far-off systems with only a couple of mining colonies would probably have very low traffic at all, maybe just a supply ship once a month, so if some civilian really wants to fly to or from those colonoies he's got to wait some weeks until the next freighter goes, and it's a quite uncomfortable way to travel.

It's probably all a matter of money, just like in real life - the regular poor citizen has to use the crowded, cheap mass transporters to get from one system to another and has to change ships every system, while the richer guys can afford to use smaller express vehicles who travel directly through different systems without the need to change ships or wait on the next spaceport for the departure of the next liner. And the really poor guys have to travel as "additional cargo" in an empty corner of a cargo freighter.

Wow, 8 new replies. I should learn to write faster.

Not if it would impact the quality of your posts 

I was thinking something along the lines of perhaps space travel for most people would be a throwback to long distance travel a lot of years ago in the early years of long distance travel, maybe as bad as people travelling in terrible conditions packed in like sardines in some old converted freighter type vessel.

Piracy would be better served by not existing at all in space!

/Rant

As for liners, we have no canon definition, I suggest keeping it like that as it adds 'customization' to campaign environments. Voting on some sort of 'default' system would add extra work for the 'writers' to explain that it does not work that way in their story.

And you know who's job it is to do that, right? Us. Rookie pilots often end up cutting their teeth on pirate scum.

Even if there was a voted way, it could never be official canon. It wouldn't stop people going off in their own direction.

I wonder why the OP asks the question. Is there a plan in mind?

[Drogoth]

Curiosity I expect

[0rph3u5]

I tried to tackle that problem in both SoI and WotW background, why there is little traffic between systems in a galactic civilisation spanning several star systems:

Basically it boiled down to the following points - spoiler tagged the details:

1) Terraforming/Colonizing a planet is a delicate process and implanted ecosystems by their very nature discourage travel from one planet to another.

Spoiler:

Note: Terraforming here extends beyond just makeing a planet habitable for human life but also to creating an ecosystem on the planet that works for human designs.

Through the magictechnology of genetic engineering (and to avoid any (more) major terraforming mishaps [see 'The Chronciles Of Solace's' Mars]) most colonies are self-stustaining when it comes to flora and fauna providing food, oxygen and waste reclaimation. Technical advancements have made importing animal life beyond the scale of insects unnecessary, everything you could need a beast of bruden for you can get with a motorized vehicle.

Leaving a colony is essentially dangerous for the destination colony and travelers coming and going are a constant hazard to the individual ecosystems transplanted on the colony worlds. Unwillingly migrating organisms designed to thrive outside your colony could endanger another colony and tigger an effect known as Contraction (again term borrowed from the 'The Chronciles Of Solace'). A Contraction event would trigger a chain reaction that would endanger all settled planets and so it is kept in the mind of entire GTVA populace that such an event could be tiggered by the slightest of oversights.

2) If a ressource cannot be naturally found at a colony site, the colony's society, in the long run, finds a way to substitue the ressource with something readily avalible or easily optainable.

Spoiler:

self-explainatory

3) Economic policy is to restrict production to products that can be manufactured with local supplies in order to limit foreign control over policies in a system.

Spoiler:

Most economies (note: plural) in GTVA space are not interdependent after a period of gaining access to the ressources avalible in system. Long term dependence also means that on the long term someone else has you under their power (see Oil Crisis in 1973). This is also a remnant from pre-GTVA-time when there was not a single but multiple competing power blocks.

4) In relation to 2 and 3 there is a small number of industrial sites in the GTVA space which have a demand excedding their supply in system.

Spoiler:

self-explainatory

5) In-system jump drives come at different levels of capacity and different price tags. The laws governing subspace flight make subspace jumps economical only for small ships.

Spoiler:

DISCLAIMER: The following is purely fiction and may not have solid foundation in contemporary science. Anyone to point out the faults and correct them is awared a metaphorical cookie.

Basically a subspace jump is easiest to accomplish when space is already bend by a mass rich object (e.g. a planet) in close proximity to the entrance point of the subspace transit. Moving away from a planet increases energy consumption for the transit. Mass of the ship transfering from point A to point B also factors in the energy consumption of the transit. Transit lengh which is the capacity to maintain the subspace transit is the final limiting factor as the longer the transit the more energy is consumed.

Hence jump drives have the least energy consumption on small ships makeing short jumps from near a mass-rich object. To jump larger ships, longer distances and/or from anywhere more energy is to be fed into the jump drive and so the ship needs a larger powerplant to achive this. Large powerplants, even fusion power sources, are expensive to make and maintain which raises the cost for their use.

6) Intersystem drives are really expensive.

Spoiler:

DISCLAIMER: The following is purely fiction and may not have solid foundation in contemporary science. Anyone to point out the faults and correct them is awared a metaphorical cookie.

Jump Notes allow subspace entry at severly reduced energy cost due to the spacial properties at their site. However intersystem jump still take up a lot of power due to the lengh of the jump and therefor a ship with a intersystem drive must either power down power consuming systems for the transit or be able to supply enough power for the jump to be successful. Special issue drives, like in military fighters, are able to minimize the problem somewhat but are a huge investment in themselves.

7) In relation to 2-6 intersystem commerce is expensive, promises little returns and so has a slim profit margin.

Spoiler:

self-explainatory

8) Ships qualifying for commercial intersystem flight have to be build with a life-time in mind that returns the investment. Building and maintaining ships with long lifetimes is expensive.

Spoiler:

A ship with a long lifetime must be able to be refitted easily and often in order to ensure it remains competetive with other vessels with the same purpose. Refitting ships takes time and money additionally to the orignal investment for the construction. The original investment is increased by taking above factors into account.

9) Due to the high costs involved intersystem commerce is highly monoploized and competition non-existiant.

Spoiler:

A company that succeeds can remain successful in the long run while company that stumbles and fails may already be finished with the first problems.

10) The monopolies on intersystem commerce are beneficial to the GTVA and thus are maintained by the government.

Spoiler:

In accordance to 3 the GTVA has little economic leverage against its member system other than restrictions that could be imposed on interstellar and -system traffic. Limiting the list of the people involved here allows the GTVA for much more efficient application of force.

To summarize:
Interplanetary travel is discourage by an apocalytic terraforming catastrophy. Intersystem commerce is expensive, rare and as a result monoploized. The monopolies are beneficial to the central GTVA government as they allow the GTVA to apply its limited power against its member systems more effectively.

Note: I have not really accounted for piracy because I kinda don't find a logical scenario for space piracy...

EDIT: Well 5 & 6 are WotW-specifica since there I had to come up with a lot of ideas on how to make subspace travel logically work ... I might have strayed from  's orignal concept quite a lot there
but the rest of the pattern should be transferable I guess...

[headdie]

much of that is certainly plausable

[karajorma]

Bear in mind that the GTVA had the lift capacity to evacuate Capella not once, but twice. That's 250 million people. It's hard to believe they did that all using military ships, which suggests quite a large number of interstellar jump capable ships.

Also it's important to realise between the two invasions they brought the people back. People fleeing from a Shivan invasion might trust their lives to jury-rigged freighters with inadequate life support, but people returning to their homes are going to want some comfort. 

[Mebber]

Some thoughts about 0rph3u5 points:

Terraforming/Colonizing a planet is a delicate process and implanted ecosystems by their very nature discourage travel from one planet to another.

That could be a problem, but it's not said that every colonized planet features a complex implanted ecosystem or is even viable for terraforming. If planets which can support garden-world like terraforming is something rare, i think it's save to assume that the colonies will make more use of systems like arcologies, dome habitats and similiar smaller and more easily controlled ecosystems by transforming local resources, which would make it possible to use more 'standarized' ecosystem assets, which is much more cost-effective than to plan an entire complex ecosystem for every new world, and would reduce the impact of possible contamination from another planets colony ecosystem.

If a ressource cannot be naturally found at a colony site, the colony's society, in the long run, finds a way to substitue the ressource with something readily avalible or easily optainable.

Economic policy is to restrict production to products that can be manufactured with local supplies in order to limit foreign control over policies in a system.

I agree, but it's more than likely that specific worlds have excesses in specific resources while are short on others, so i think they will focus on producing, refining and processing goods they have and export them, and import goods they lack of. And it's not only about establishing self-sufficiency but also about the growth of (not necessary for survival) wealth which would drive people to trade. And if there is a demand for transporting goods, there will be someone to satisfy this demand.

Intersystem drives are really expensive.

With this point everything else stands or falls. If the costs for intersystem drives are too high, the costs would simply overweight the economical demands. But i don't think intersystem drives aren't that extremly expensive - if they were, i think warfare would look different, with more dependence on carriers and not fighters equipped with intersystem drives. And we saw two great evacuations in the game, Capella and Vasuda Prime. Millions and millions were transported off-system in a rather short time, i find it hard to imagine that this would be possible if ships capable of intersystem jumps and life-support capablities for a notable number of people, like designated civil transports, would be something very rare.

[TrashMan]

Let's ask the guy(s) who've already modelled a space liner for Freespace. Only i don't remember what it's called and what campaign it's from.

That would be me. I made 2 liners and 1 civ station. They were the onyl ones out there thet I know off, but that was a while ago.
I'm sure other poeple have made more liners by now.
At least I hope so.


@Orph3us - you make some good points there. I generally like it. Except for the terraforming apocalypse. Terraforming in itself is a massive undertaking that by definition fraks up the "natural" balance and sets up it's own. People visiting can hardly cause an apocalypse, altough introducing a foreign species in an enviroment might slow the process down. It makes sense that during the terraforming process only the terraforming crew would be there, but once the planet is ready?

[MatthTheGeek]

This is the only acceptable-looking liner I know of.