[Flak]

Another one of these silly stories? I already heard quite a few outside the internet. Sure faith the most important thing, but that doesn't mean you don't have to see a doctor. God give you that brain not for you to turn it into white elephant.

By the way, it is not right to say a prayer does not 'work'. It is more appropriate to say God just said no to it, after all, God is not a vending machine that you can just anything out of your 'favor points'.

[BloodEagle]

So, nothing new on this at all?  There was supposed to be an autopsy.

[watsisname]

By the way, it is not right to say a prayer does not 'work'. It is more appropriate to say God just said no to it, after all, God is not a vending machine that you can just anything out of your 'favor points'.

This is absolutely fine as long as you recognize that it is not a testable statement.
I'm glad for those who believe that prayer isn't a "get what you want when you want it" type of thing.  Pray for good things to happen, pray for happiness and a good life and afterlife, etc, but real-world problems such as what happened in this story should be solved by people being responsible and not depending on their local deity to save the day for them.

[Suongadon]

So, nothing new on this at all?  There was supposed to be an autopsy.

Its only been two days. Why should it be done?

e: and if this doesn't go through I give up: A finalized autopsy report (which the prosecutor probably needs in this case before filing charges) usually takes weeks or months, because they have to send blood/etc samples out to a lab, which undoubtedly has a backlog, have them tested and returned before a medical examiner can file a report. 

[Turambar]

It was disrespectful.  I don't respect things that don't deserve respect.  At least, not on the internet.

I would think one who is so enlightened as you could take a higher road. Which was my point back on page 2. If your non-religious worldview leads to treating people in that way.. I don't want any part of it. Why should I renounce my faith to become a grand troll of the religious on the internet?

The high road means that kids keep dying because people keep subscribing to these silly beliefs.  Since religions contain directives for breeding and for believing in the face of evidence, we're not going to get rid of them by turning our noses up and walking away.  Religion needs to be torn down so we can move forward.

[Flak]

I am not sure if that is the first case in the US. But I have already heard multiple cases around my area, though not all of them ended in death (but some relatives managed to beat some sense into them). I am in a third world country that doesn't look like one anyway. Trust me however, this is Christians' problem more than anyone else's. Those idiots need to be straightened up and returned to the right path. To be a proper Christian is to give our hearts to God, not to become idiots who just want God to obey our wishes, that would be Karl Marx' 'prophecy' of people using religion as drugs.

[karajorma]

You're forgetting that the parents who didn't let their own child die but are otherwise the same are going to outcompete these people.

I'm not forgetting it. I just don't think it's the slightest bit relevant to the subject at hand. If it is, kindly explain how that fact in any way prevents this from being a viable strategy.

As far as I can tell you're trying to argue that you can't become rich selling silver because you'll become richer selling gold.

[Lorric]

I am not sure if that is the first case in the US. But I have already heard multiple cases around my area, though not all of them ended in death (but some relatives managed to beat some sense into them). I am in a third world country that doesn't look like one anyway. Trust me however, this is Christians' problem more than anyone else's. Those idiots need to be straightened up and returned to the right path. To be a proper Christian is to give our hearts to God, not to become idiots who just want God to obey our wishes, that would be Karl Marx' 'prophecy' of people using religion as drugs.

It's a semi-regular thing to see on the news. Probably about as regular as a family murder/suicide as a rough estimate.

[newman]

I'm not really religious, but even I know the old postulate that "God helps those who help themselves". If you're going to be a religious fanatic, at least know the material and stop selective reading of the Bible.

[The E]

The high road means that kids keep dying because people keep subscribing to these silly beliefs.  Since religions contain directives for breeding and for believing in the face of evidence, we're not going to get rid of them by turning our noses up and walking away.  Religion needs to be torn down so we can move forward.

Please explain to the class how your view is better than or different to that of a religious fundamentalist. Extra points awarded for explaining why using the same rhetoric does not put you on the same level.

[Mebber]

The high road means that kids keep dying because people keep subscribing to these silly beliefs.  Since religions contain directives for breeding and for believing in the face of evidence, we're not going to get rid of them by turning our noses up and walking away.  Religion needs to be torn down so we can move forward.

That's a rather destructive view imo. Needs to be torn down? You can't tell people what they are allowed to believe and what not, at least not in the kind of society i want to live in.

Besides that, i'd highly doubt it would change anything at all. With religion or without, condemnable things will happen again and again, just as they did before. Religion is often blamed for causing all kind of misdoings in history and the present, and has become some sort of red rag to a bull for some people. I don't see the point of that, because humans aren't dependant on religion to behave like morons.

[Luis Dias]

Nobody is saying that the parents of this unfortunate child are anything other than complete and total idiots. The vast majority of Christians, even those who believe in faith healing, would still take their children to a doctor rather than rely entirely on faith healing.

However, comments like this:

Well their kids have first-hand evidence now that PRAYER DOESN'T WORK.  Might help them out in the long run.

...cannot be called anything other than disrespectful.

It's actually kind of hilarious how such people will call out Christianity and its ilk for being "intolerant" and then say things like that unironically.

I really don't understand how making the obvious point that prayer doesn't work, which in this context means it's not a ****ing substitute for getting your own child to the damn doctor, is "disrespecful".

Really. This kind of nonsense has to go. I'm sympathetic to religious people who feel offended and disrespected, but to a point. I really couldn't give a damn if they feel "disrespected" if someone makes the ****ing obvious empirical statement. Get a thicker skin.

By all means, believe what you want, and pray what you want. As long as you take your child to the damned doctor too.


Edit: About the torn down religion, come on, we had the experience of oppressing religion. Wasn't fun. At. All.

Edit2:

... that would be Karl Marx' 'prophecy' of people using religion as drugs.

Just to clarify the worst misquotation of history. Karl Marx didn't say what you think he said. Here's the full quote, and it's ****ing brilliant and beautiful:

The foundation of irreligious criticism is: Man makes religion, religion does not make man. Religion is, indeed, the self-consciousness and self-esteem of man who has either not yet won through to himself, or has already lost himself again. But man is no abstract being squatting outside the world. Man is the world of man – state, society. This state and this society produce religion, which is an inverted consciousness of the world, because they are an inverted world. Religion is the general theory of this world, its encyclopaedic compendium, its logic in popular form, its spiritual point d’honneur, its enthusiasm, its moral sanction, its solemn complement, and its universal basis of consolation and justification. It is the fantastic realization of the human essence since the human essence has not acquired any true reality. The struggle against religion is, therefore, indirectly the struggle against that world whose spiritual aroma is religion.

Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people.

The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions. The criticism of religion is, therefore, in embryo, the criticism of that vale of tears of which religion is the halo.

Criticism has plucked the imaginary flowers on the chain not in order that man shall continue to bear that chain without fantasy or consolation, but so that he shall throw off the chain and pluck the living flower.

[NGTM-1R]

It is more appropriate to say God just said no to it, after all, God is not a vending machine that you can just anything out of your 'favor points'.

This pretty much means it doesn't work, i.e. it does not produce consistent and useful results.

[Flak]

Actually I mixed that up with Nietzsche's words.

Nevermind that. I do agree what the other guy said. By not taking the child to the doctor, they are in a manner disrespecting God, by neglecting their own responsibility as parents. After all, in Christianity, parents are supposed to be something of an extension of God's hands for their children.

The high road means that kids keep dying because people keep subscribing to these silly beliefs.  Since religions contain directives for breeding and for believing in the face of evidence, we're not going to get rid of them by turning our noses up and walking away.  Religion needs to be torn down so we can move forward.

That's a rather destructive view imo. Needs to be torn down? You can't tell people what they are allowed to believe and what not, at least not in the kind of society i want to live in.

Besides that, i'd highly doubt it would change anything at all. With religion or without, condemnable things will happen again and again, just as they did before. Religion is often blamed for causing all kind of misdoings in history and the present, and has become some sort of red rag to a bull for some people. I don't see the point of that, because humans aren't dependant on religion to behave like morons.

That reminds me of one of John Lennon's song. I know many religious people's ears get hot it says 'Imagine no religion', thinking of it of a pagan thought or something. But I do understand what he meant by that. Perhaps it can be a warning for all to take a look at ourselves and stop using religion as an excuse to commit atrocities.

[Bobboau]

Aaaaaaand that's the kind of lack of respect I was referring to on page 2...

why should anyone respect that which causes the preventable and curable slow and painful death of children?
should we be respecting pedophiles too? define for me, please, what it is exactly that should entitle a belief/worldview/lifestyle to respect.
I'll start! I give things respect in proportion to how much suffering and death they remove from the world. things that have a proven track record of making people live longer, and having less laborious/more enjoyable life.

I would think one who is so enlightened as you could take a higher road.

define 'higher'. do you mean less confrontational/more submissive?

Why should I renounce my faith to become a grand troll of the religious on the internet?

I assume, because you do not want your children to die slowly and painfully from some easily curable ailment?

Please explain to the class how your view is better than or different to that of a religious fundamentalist. Extra points awarded for explaining why using the same rhetoric does not put you on the same level.

because his view, or more accurately what he would like to see the world move towards, has been materially shown to result in less misery and death. this assumes one values happiness and life to qualify as 'better'.

the rhetoric has proven quite effective on the target demographic, seems silly to not use such a demonstrably effective tool. in addition to that it just feels good to get that pent up frustration of dealing with the religious off of ones back.

[karajorma]

It's pretty bigoted though to blame every single person who is religious for the actions of two parents.

You're ascribing the stupid actions of those people to religion rather than stupidity. While I also have issues with religion, I think that trying to say that all religious people can be tarred with the same brush is pretty intolerant.

[BloodEagle]

Please explain to the class how your view is better than or different to that of a religious fundamentalist. Extra points awarded for explaining why using the same rhetoric does not put you on the same level.

because his view, or more accurately what he would like to see the world move towards, has been materially shown to result in less misery and death.

because his view [...] has been materially shown to result in less [...] death.

Holy **** did I miss something important in the last few years! 

[Bobboau]

You're ascribing the stupid actions of those people to religion rather than stupidity.

why are these people stupid? are these people stupid? maybe it is just they accept a different model of reality and in that model they were making the best possible decision. unfortunately their model turned out to be inaccurate, to disastrous effect. even more unfortunate this model has mechanisms built into it to take into account it's own failure "it's a test of faith", "it was our fault because we were not faithful enough". rather than blaming their model they blame themselves for not following it strictly enough, and disaster strikes again. I cannot feel anything other than pity and sorrow for these people, and contempt for the parasite in their minds that led them and their children to this fate.

Holy **** did I miss something important in the last few years! 

yes, you apparently missed the industrial revolution, the agricultural revolution, and modern medicine.

[BloodEagle]

You're ascribing the stupid actions of those people to religion rather than stupidity.

why are these people stupid? are these people stupid? maybe it is just they accept a different model of reality and in that model they were making the best possible decision. unfortunately their model turned out to be inaccurate, to disastrous effect. even more unfortunate this model has mechanisms built into it to take into account it's own failure "it's a test of faith", "it was our fault because we were not faithful enough". rather than blaming their model they blame themselves for not following it strictly enough, and disaster strikes again. I cannot feel anything other than pity and sorrow for these people, and contempt for the parasite in their minds that led them and their children to this fate.

Weren't there a bunch of non-religious people who boycotted vaccinations because of some news fear-mongering, a while back?

These types people will find a reason to be stupid and get someone killed, religion is not required.

Holy **** did I miss something important in the last few years! 

yes, you apparently missed the industrial revolution, the agricultural revolution, and modern medicine.

I was unaware that the serum for immortality and invulnerability had finally been discovered / created.

Where can one pick up a vial of this?

[Bobboau]

Weren't there a bunch of non-religious people who boycotted vaccinations because of some news fear-mongering, a while back?

This is slightly different in that it is something learned later in life, rather than ingrained from birth. But ultimately it boils down to the same thing, person making the right choice for a reality they do not actually live in.