[karajorma]

Ignorant or complicit, the reaction the rest of us should have is the same, make enough of a stink about it that they don't get away with it.

Not hiding behind stupid truisms like that you can't judge a country by one man and using that as an excuse to ignore this sort of bull****.

[Lorric]

Ignorant or complicit, the reaction the rest of us should have is the same, make enough of a stink about it that they don't get away with it.

Not hiding behind stupid truisms like that you can't judge a country by one man and using that as an excuse to ignore this sort of bull****.

Coming from Chinese/Koreans, it probably feels like they're out to get them. Japanese is an obscure language to the West. But I'm sure they'd be more likely to listen to a neutral explain a few things to them.

I honestly think you're being too harsh on the Japanese. They're a very civilised people. And the current generation shouldn't have to feel any guilt about what their ancestors did. Same for Germans. Today's Japan is unrecognisable from WW2 Japan. I think the truism is valid. It's one guy. And the Japanese weren't getting behind him. I don't like the censorship, but could you blame the Japanese for just wanting to put it in the past and move forward?

[karajorma]

I blame them for wanting to pretend it didn't happen, or worse, wanting to act like it was a good thing. Yes, I very much blame them for that.

Why don't we have Obama say that what the settlers did to the Native Americans was necessary? Or have David Cameron defend the British invasion of India as a great idea? I mean the fact that that stuff happened outside of living memory should make it okay, right? There won't be anyone upset about those comments, right?

The "It's just one man" comments get silly when
1) I've already linked to two men saying stupid ****.
2) One of them is the ****ing leader of the country.

Oh and stop inventing stuff about the Japanese not being behind those comments. You've already admitted you don't know one way or the other.

[Lorric]

I blame them for wanting to pretend it didn't happen, or worse, wanting to act like it was a good thing. Yes, I very much blame them for that.

Why don't we have Obama say that what the settlers did to the Native Americans was necessary? Or have David Cameron defend the British invasion of India as a great idea? I mean the fact that that stuff happened outside of living memory should make it okay, right? There won't be anyone upset about those comments, right?

The "It's just one man" comments get silly when
1) I've already linked to two men saying stupid ****.
2) One of them is the ****ing leader of the country.

Oh and stop inventing stuff about the Japanese not being behind those comments. You've already admitted you don't know one way or the other.

On another note, at least they're not going to revise the old apology:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/may/08/japan-apologies-military-conduct-asia

I still disagree with the idea of, even if it is the top man, letting that be an assumption that they speak for the people in general. David Cameron doesn't speak for me. I didn't even vote for him, but if I did, he still wouldn't. He's there to do a job, his opinions on World history are not mine.

If I was going to vote, and one of the candidates had some dodgy views about events which happened 70 years ago, but were otherwise the best candidate for the job, I'd vote for them. I'm voting for them to run the country now, not 70 years ago.

I'm not defending it, it's wrong. But you should imo be attacking just the man, not the people. He was speaking only for himself with these remarks, not Japan, I know that. Go after Shinzo Abe, not Japan.

If he gets to do anything more impactful than just run his mouth on his own views, whether actual policy changes, or trying to truly speak as if the whole of Japan is behind him, without being opposed, then we can start bringing the whole of Japan into this.

[karajorma]

Mah, I give up. Believe whatever you want.

I'm just going to post this.

http://shanghaiist.com/2012/12/13/why_japanese_apologies_for_wwii_rin.php

[Lorric]

Mah, I give up. Believe whatever you want.

I'm just going to post this.

http://shanghaiist.com/2012/12/13/why_japanese_apologies_for_wwii_rin.php

I read your link. If anything, to me it says there is a lot of suspicion and ignorance on both sides.

Oh well, I guess we're just going to have to take Wings of Dawn and make the Japanese see it, along with some of the best eye-candy available, so we can lure some English-speaking Japanese to this site, then we can ask them 

Peace.

[Phantom Hoover]

lorric, i am truly amazed at how quickly and effectively you were able to purge all insight or nuance from the discussion. outstanding work

[Lorric]

lorric, i am truly amazed at how quickly and effectively you were able to purge all insight or nuance from the discussion. outstanding work

Is that so...

[karajorma]

I read your link. If anything, to me it says there is a lot of suspicion and ignorance on both sides.

And who said there wasn't?

[Lorric]

I read your link. If anything, to me it says there is a lot of suspicion and ignorance on both sides.

And who said there wasn't?

No one. That was just what the link made me think.

[karajorma]

You do realize there's enough historical animosity between Korea and China, usually about Korea's stubborn refusal to be conquered and sometimes striking back, to make most European country feuds look tame?

Now I let this one slide at the time because I haven't studied much Chinese history (I'm waiting till I can read it in Chinese) but I asked a friend today who has studied it a bit and we were both confused as to exactly when the Chinese invaded Korea. I know the Mongols and Manchu did it, but then both of them also invaded China.

[Spoon]

Here's a NSFW link which has absolutely no neutrality on the subject so blablabla don't put too much stock into it: http://www.sankakucomplex.com/2013/05/14/hashimoto-i-told-the-us-military-to-use-more-prostitutes/
What I'm linking this for are the translated quotes from japanese internet posters:

They did surprise even the nest of right-wing loons which is Japan’s largest online forum, however:

    “Isn’t this guy a moron? He seems to just want to stand out by any means necessary.”

    “What is he on? How could you think to say something like this in public?”

    “Hashimoto seems to be unable to control his own urges so these comments are not surprising.”

    “This coming from a guy whose adultery got exposed.”

    “America’s army doesn’t want to do any Japs!”

    “I thought most brothels refused to serve foreigners in any case.”

    “Right, most of them ban white and black men anyway. And their girls hate whites. How sad, even if a white has money he can’t even get a woman in a brothel.”

    “A hot white guy can just sit there silent and the girls will come to him so it hardly matters.”

    “I can’t believe how rude this guy is. Like he views American soldiers as animals… most of them are just simple young lads.”

    “What a shameless fool. What is he thinking? Where else can you find a politician asking members of a foreign military to make better use of his own nation’s prostitutes?”

Yes, small sample size etc
But at least it gives Karajorma an idea that the average (right winged?) Japanese person does not exactly seem to approve of this man and his visions.

I also like how this has been going since 1950
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_Japan

[MP-Ryan]

Lorric, it is broadly documented that the majority of Japanese are completely ignorant of the atrocities committed by their country and fellow citizens throughout the Second World War, an ignorance that manifests itself as the stupidity in certain political statements.

That politician is a symptom of a vast societal ignorance about a period in that country's history which its political leadership generally would like to be completely forgotten, in large part due to the fact that Japanese royalty - and the emperor himself, at the time - had a large hand in the decision-making and cultural leadership that let it all happen.

So no, Japan as a whole does not get a pass on "one guy's comments."

[Lorric]

But Japan as a whole isn't trying to dig up skeletons. If they just want to forget about it, then they'll cause no problems.

Why bother the average Japanese? They had no part in WW2. Why should it be a stone around their necks? The sins of the father are not the sins of the son.

Funnily enough, I googled that last sentence on a whim and got this...

http://nation.time.com/2012/12/11/why-japan-is-still-not-sorry-enough/

It's quite interesting.

[The E]

There's an old saying. "Those who do not know history are doomed to repeat it". I do not know if you ever heard of it.
Let me illustrate. Why should my generation (I was born in 1981) get educated on the horrors of Nazi Germany? It's not like us, or our parents, had anything to do with it, right? Surely there can be no harm in ignoring all that long-gone nonsense and just get on with it, right?

What you just said there, Lorric? It's wrong. Completely, utterly, inexcusably wrong. Allowing extremists to reinterpret past atrocities as being good for all concerned never ends well. These notions need to be squashed, and squashed hard, and to do that, you need a broad base of people who are educated about what really happened. I am astonished that you, guardian of morality that you would like to be, think that letting these people off is a good idea.

[Lorric]

There's an old saying. "Those who do not know history are doomed to repeat it". I do not know if you ever heard of it.
Let me illustrate. Why should my generation (I was born in 1981) get educated on the horrors of Nazi Germany? It's not like us, or our parents, had anything to do with it, right? Surely there can be no harm in ignoring all that long-gone nonsense and just get on with it, right?

What you just said there, Lorric? It's wrong. Completely, utterly, inexcusably wrong. Allowing extremists to reinterpret past atrocities as being good for all concerned never ends well. These notions need to be squashed, and squashed hard, and to do that, you need a broad base of people who are educated about what really happened. I am astonished that you, guardian of morality that you would like to be, think that letting these people off is a good idea.

I am a big believer in "Those who do not know history are doomed to repeat it". History was my favourite subject at school.

And I have already stated the extremists are wrong. I'm not comfortable with tarring all the Japanese with this brush however. I am certainly in favour of the Japanese being educated on the past. My problem is saying all (or most) of the Japanese are bad or share the PM's view just because he decided to run his mouth.

[The E]

Please reconcile that statement and this one:

But Japan as a whole isn't trying to dig up skeletons. If they just want to forget about it, then they'll cause no problems.

There's quite a disconnect here.

[Lorric]

Please reconcile that statement and this one:

But Japan as a whole isn't trying to dig up skeletons. If they just want to forget about it, then they'll cause no problems.

There's quite a disconnect here.

I trust Japanese society not to make those mistakes. It's completely changed.

[The E]

And I trust german society not to turn Nazi any time soon, but I do so only because I know that there's wide awareness of why doing so would be a terrible idea.

"Just forgetting about it" allows idiots to gain much larger audiences. "Just forgetting about it" implies that no lesson will be learned from it. "Just forgetting about it" IS THE EXACT SAME THING AS NOT KNOWING HISTORY.

[StarSlayer]

I'm sorry but quietly sweeping it under the rug only works when enough people remember its under there.  Once those people are gone you're left with a population with an inconvenient hole in their grasp of history.  Therein lies the potential for folks to swing back to beliefs they otherwise would know are a problem.