[Lorric]

And I trust german society not to turn Nazi any time soon, but I do so only because I know that there's wide awareness of why doing so would be a terrible idea.

"Just forgetting about it" allows idiots to gain much larger audiences. "Just forgetting about it" implies that no lesson will be learned from it. "Just forgetting about it" IS THE EXACT SAME THING AS NOT KNOWING HISTORY.

I never meant forget in such a strongly literal sense. Even the Japanese don't do that, at least there is some awareness, even if it is unsatisfactory.

I'm just thinking more as in moving forward, putting the past behind them, and moving on as an advanced, hard-working, and most importantly, peaceful society.

Nobody stops the Japanese from learning this stuff. The information is open to anyone who wishes to seek that information out. And I'm sure some will. If anyone tries to take Japan down that path, those people will be there to rise against it. And the World will be there to help, as the World certainly won't want a new Japan like WW2 Japan.

[Phantom Hoover]

Please reconcile that statement and this one:

But Japan as a whole isn't trying to dig up skeletons. If they just want to forget about it, then they'll cause no problems.

There's quite a disconnect here.

I trust Japanese society not to make those mistakes. It's completely changed.

except it evidently hasn't, because it still has a systemic resistance to condemning the actions of wwii-era japan

[StarSlayer]

I do not know much about Quaker industrial growth in post Revolutionary Philadelphia.  There is plenty of information available on it, but it doesn't much have a direct bearing in my life and doesn't much interest me.  It wasn't particularly covered in school so why should I bother?

Of course that growth, especially embodied in the person of Joshua Humphreys was pivotal to the birth of the US Navy.  Without his expertise and know how the six frigates that would prove pivotal in the nascent years of the Navy would not exist forever altering history.  I bet the number of people who know that fun fact outside of history buffs and people tied to the US Navy is infinitesimally small.

And your advocating that an entire country expect its population to learn on its own time about one of the most pivotal events in its history.

[Lorric]

Is it relevant to today's Japan? If it becomes relevant people will look. We live in the information age now. You don't have to go down to the library and spend hours leafing through books to find what you seek. Just log in, hit a few buttons, and away you go on a wondrous journey of discovery.

For now it's just politicians flapping their gums. If it becomes more than hot air, people will look.

[The E]

It takes a few seconds to look up a few facts.

It takes actual study to understand how they're relevant. In Germany, the history of the Third Reich is a major topic throughout the last 3 or 5 years of education. It is only through this sort of prolonged study that understanding can grow.

[StarSlayer]

I'm sure its relevant every time they cut the budget for the JSDF or debate the value of US bases in Okinawa and mainland Japan.  In fact the shadow of WW2 looms over much of the subsequent history of the entire Pacific/Asian sphere for the past sixty years.  It would be like cutting slavery out of US history and then trying to figure out what segregation was all about or why affirmative action exists.

[Phantom Hoover]

It occurs to me that I live next to a history student who knows basically nothing about the history of her own country; the general problem of people lacking basic knowledge is not a uniquely Japanese thing.

[Nikogori]

I'm not good at writing in English, and I'm not in a mood to discuss about politics. However, as a Japanese I think it's necessary to state what my opinion is.

I will never support our nation's prime minister and the mayor of my city.

I have a Korean friend. I met him when I was a 14 years old. I moved into the city from small town near mountains. He helped me a lot to settle into a new life. He was kind to everyone and everybody liked him.
As far as I know, there was no recognizable animosity toward neighboring nations in the end of the last century. I remember one of the comic books about history in my school, described many Japanese atrocities during WW2.

However, it's true there is a growing hostility toward China and Korea, especially among young people.
Japan is losing its economical power and regional leadership in east Asia. Chinese Navy are threatening our territory and Korean companies are strong at competitions in the global market.
Many young people in Japan are angry at this situation.

Most people support Abe and Hashimoto because they are trying to revitalize business activities. However, I believe underlying hostility makes them less sensitive to those politician's remarks.

Of course there are many people who likes Korean and Chinese in Japan. If you visit Kansai(Osaka, Kobe, Kyoto, Nara) area, I'll show you around China town and Korean town.

[StarSlayer]

 

It occurs to me that I live next to a history student who knows basically nothing about the history of her own country; the general problem of people lacking basic knowledge is not a uniquely Japanese thing.

Oh it certainly isn't.  It's a common flaw in most education systems that they highlight the good of their particular society and whitewash the bad.  The negative lessons are often the most important and its a dangerous precedent, which is why it baffles me that Lorric seems so gun ho on this.

This isn't a Japanese centric issue, the US system does a wonderful job of glazing over the destruction of American Indians.  I wouldn't surprise me if European nations don't spend a lot of time on all the skeletons in their closets either.

[General Battuta]

I'm not good at writing in English, and I'm not in a mood to discuss about politics. However, as a Japanese I think it's necessary to state what my opinion is.

I will never support our nation's prime minister and the mayor of my city.

I have a Korean friend. I met him when I was a 14 years old. I moved into the city from small town near mountains. He helped me a lot to settle into a new life. He was kind to everyone and everybody liked him.
As far as I know, there was no recognizable animosity toward neighboring nations in the end of the last century. I remember one of the comic books about history in my school, described many Japanese atrocities during WW2.

However, it's true there is a growing hostility toward China and Korea, especially among young people.
Japan is losing its economical power and regional leadership in east Asia. Chinese Navy are threatening our territory and Korean companies are strong at competitions in the global market.
Many young people in Japan are angry at this situation.

Most people support Abe and Hashimoto because they are trying to revitalize business activities. However, I believe underlying hostility makes them less sensitive to those politician's remarks.

Of course there are many people who likes Korean and Chinese in Japan. If you visit Kansai(Osaka, Kobe, Kyoto, Nara) area, I'll show you around China town and Korean town.

Quoting for good post

[Lorric]

It takes a few seconds to look up a few facts.

It takes actual study to understand how they're relevant. In Germany, the history of the Third Reich is a major topic throughout the last 3 or 5 years of education. It is only through this sort of prolonged study that understanding can grow.

I've always found it strange how a great deal of time was devoted to World War 2 in my British education. Easily more than any other historical period. But almost nothing about Japan's involvement. It was all about Europe. Though this could have just been my school's decision, of course. Does Japan feature in the German education in any detail?

I would put education on WW2 at the top of any historical educational schooling program. It has so much to teach us about humanity.

I'm sure its relevant every time they cut the budget for the JSDF or debate the value of US bases in Okinawa and mainland Japan.  In fact the shadow of WW2 looms over much of the subsequent history of the entire Pacific/Asian sphere for the past sixty years.  It would be like cutting slavery out of US history and then trying to figure out what segregation was all about or why affirmative action exists.

Hmmm. This is making me think in a new direction that while I don't know what areas of history Japanese teachers choose to teach, or what importance/benefit they will bring to the Japanese student of today, I would guess there would be something/s that could be cut to accomodate more teaching on WW2 to greater benefit to the Japanese.

It occurs to me that I live next to a history student who knows basically nothing about the history of her own country; the general problem of people lacking basic knowledge is not a uniquely Japanese thing.

What country do you live in, if you don't mind my asking?

I'm not good at writing in English, and I'm not in a mood to discuss about politics. However, as a Japanese I think it's necessary to state what my opinion is.

I will never support our nation's prime minister and the mayor of my city.

I have a Korean friend. I met him when I was a 14 years old. I moved into the city from small town near mountains. He helped me a lot to settle into a new life. He was kind to everyone and everybody liked him.
As far as I know, there was no recognizable animosity toward neighboring nations in the end of the last century. I remember one of the comic books about history in my school, described many Japanese atrocities during WW2.

However, it's true there is a growing hostility toward China and Korea, especially among young people.
Japan is losing its economical power and regional leadership in east Asia. Chinese Navy are threatening our territory and Korean companies are strong at competitions in the global market.
Many young people in Japan are angry at this situation.

Most people support Abe and Hashimoto because they are trying to revitalize business activities. However, I believe underlying hostility makes them less sensitive to those politician's remarks.

Of course there are many people who likes Korean and Chinese in Japan. If you visit Kansai(Osaka, Kobe, Kyoto, Nara) area, I'll show you around China town and Korean town.

Hello. Thanks for posting.

Oh it certainly isn't.  It's a common flaw in most education systems that they highlight the good of their particular society and whitewash the bad.  The negative lessons are often the most important and its a dangerous precedent, which is why it baffles me that Lorric seems so gun ho on this.

This isn't a Japanese centric issue, the US system does a wonderful job of glazing over the destruction of American Indians.  I wouldn't surprise me if European nations don't spend a lot of time on all the skeletons in their closets either.

I did get taught about many things that took place in Medieval times at school, including some of the skeletons rattling around in England's closet. The Crusades in particular the teaching was very much that we were the uncivilised and backward society in that conflict.

[Phantom Hoover]

What country do you live in, if you don't mind my asking?

the same one as you

[Lorric]

What country do you live in, if you don't mind my asking?

the same one as you

Oh, that's interesting 

I guess I got lucky with my history class. My history teacher was my favourite teacher.

[The E]

I've always found it strange how a great deal of time was devoted to World War 2 in my British education. Easily more than any other historical period. But almost nothing about Japan's involvement. It was all about Europe. Though this could have just been my school's decision, of course. Does Japan feature in the German education in any detail?

Of course not. There's no reason to go over japanese atrocities in great detail when german atrocities are available. The object of the lesson is not to give a comprehensive overview of what happened in WW2, but to make absolutely clear why we cannot allow any of it to be repeated.

[NGTM-1R]

Is it relevant to today's Japan?

The Japanese constitution and governmental structure are a direct result of the Second World War.

Japan's troubles with foreign policy are a direct result of the Second World War.

Japan was right on the brink of national suicide at the end of the Second World War. Their destruction as an independent polity, being divided into North and South Japan like Korea, the destruction of Japanese as a culture and even an ethnicity, all of that was very much possible.

The way World War 2 was conducted and the way it was ended are central factors to the existence of modern Japan in a way that very few events in history ever have been for any nation. Probably the only comparable formative experience, one in which the existence of not only the government but the nation and even the people were threatened, would be the Russian experience of the same war. If you have to ask if it's relevant, you aren't educated enough to be participating in this discussion.

[Lorric]

I've always found it strange how a great deal of time was devoted to World War 2 in my British education. Easily more than any other historical period. But almost nothing about Japan's involvement. It was all about Europe. Though this could have just been my school's decision, of course. Does Japan feature in the German education in any detail?

Of course not. There's no reason to go over japanese atrocities in great detail when german atrocities are available. The object of the lesson is not to give a comprehensive overview of what happened in WW2, but to make absolutely clear why we cannot allow any of it to be repeated.

Yes, good point. Seems sound.

Is it relevant to today's Japan?

The Japanese constitution and governmental structure are a direct result of the Second World War.

Japan's troubles with foreign policy are a direct result of the Second World War.

Japan was right on the brink of national suicide at the end of the Second World War. Their destruction as an independent polity, being divided into North and South Japan like Korea, the destruction of Japanese as a culture and even an ethnicity, all of that was very much possible.

The way World War 2 was conducted and the way it was ended are central factors to the existence of modern Japan in a way that very few events in history ever have been for any nation. Probably the only comparable formative experience, one in which the existence of not only the government but the nation and even the people were threatened, would be the Russian experience of the same war. If you have to ask if it's relevant, you aren't educated enough to be participating in this discussion.

These things though are exactly why I said it. Big changes have already been stamped on Japan to ensure such things never take place again. We have a new totally different Japan today.

[The E]

For someone who says that History was his favourite subject in school, your understanding of the reason why we study history is remarkably lacking.

We study history to give context to the present and to have a framework for the future. Someone who knows history will always be able to have a greater, more nuanced appreciation of the present than someone who doesn't have that understanding.

In this case, understanding the realities of WW2 in Asia is necessary to understand the realities of asian politics today. A person without that context will never be able to understand the reactions of people who do know about it. A country that does not understand this principle is very, very certain to do something incredibly foolish. It's like the colonial powers in Africa shaping countries by drawing lines on a map, which is directly responsible for the sorry state Africa (an entire ****ing continent worth of people!) has been in since the end of colonialism.

[StarSlayer]

We study history to give context to the present and to have a framework for the future. Someone who knows history will always be able to have a greater, more nuanced appreciation of the present than someone who doesn't have that understanding.

This ^

The world around you is a product of what has happened leading up to it.  You can't hope to understand or shape it without this knowledge.

[Lorric]

For someone who says that History was his favourite subject in school, your understanding of the reason why we study history is remarkably lacking.

We study history to give context to the present and to have a framework for the future. Someone who knows history will always be able to have a greater, more nuanced appreciation of the present than someone who doesn't have that understanding.

In this case, understanding the realities of WW2 in Asia is necessary to understand the realities of asian politics today. A person without that context will never be able to understand the reactions of people who do know about it. A country that does not understand this principle is very, very certain to do something incredibly foolish. It's like the colonial powers in Africa shaping countries by drawing lines on a map, which is directly responsible for the sorry state Africa (an entire ****ing continent worth of people!) has been in since the end of colonialism.

You're only half right. I know we study the past to not repeat it's mistakes, and learn from the wisdom of those that came before.

For the WW2 teachings at school, I never questioned why they were teaching it to us. I just drank it in. It's a big part of my country's history and that was enough of a reason for me I thought as to why they were teaching it to us. Most of the stuff was my country's history. I also never considered the idea that it was to teach not just Germans but everyone not to repeat those mistakes. I took in the information, but I didn't think of that. It has still accomplished that purpose no matter what I thought of the reasons why I was being shown what I was being shown.

[Mebber]

Oh it certainly isn't.  It's a common flaw in most education systems that they highlight the good of their particular society and whitewash the bad.  The negative lessons are often the most important and its a dangerous precedent, which is why it baffles me that Lorric seems so gun ho on this.

This isn't a Japanese centric issue, the US system does a wonderful job of glazing over the destruction of American Indians.  I wouldn't surprise me if European nations don't spend a lot of time on all the skeletons in their closets either.

I intended to post something the like a few pages ago, i but was actually too lazy and i thought it might derail the thread. I think that's a major point, you'll find these tendencies just about everywhere, regardless of nationality. Accurate history education including a good deal of self-reflection concerning misdeeds of the own nation are surely important to avoid such one-sided perspectives, but i don't think this kind of thinking is based mainly on biased history lessons, i guess it roots much deeper (unfortunately).

I live in Germany, and for quite obvious reasons neglecting our own atrocities in history wouldn't be easy, and therefore this matter is thankfully discussed rigorously in our schools and the public. But i think similar tendencies are still quite prominent among some people here, hidden under a layer of public guilt we've grown up with, so i don't think it's mainly a problem of history education. Of course, we can't actually deny the atrocities in our nations (well, some do, but let's not talk about extremists), so we need to do it the other way around by
highlighting other nations' misdeeds. This behaviour is of course not only restricted to Germans, and i can only speak of my own experiences.

I had to think of this as MP-Ryan noted that many people feel of WW2 japanese as victims cause of the kind the war ended, through the use of the atomic bombings, and that the US and -as far as know- a major part of the US public never evaluated those bombings as actual war crimes; a perfect opportunity to point at others if it comes to sensible questions like guilt, and thereby distracting from 'own' misdeeds.

If it comes to matters like warcrimes, guilt, atrocities and the like -anything that touches the reputation or prestige of a nation- many people seem to feel the urge to 'defend' their nation, whether through denying own misdeeds or by referring (and thereby distracting from / or relativising the own acts) to the former enemies' misdeeds.

The main problem is nationalism itself i guess, the weird concept of 'national pride' and the feeling that nationality is somehow connected to personal prestigiousness. Japan is absolutely not alone with this.