[Flipside]

Well, don't know who else watched it, but very good episode, at least if you know the history of Doctor Who.

I first thought that the 'new' Doctor was the Valeyard, but it appears that this may actually be the Doctor who lived before Ecclestone, the one who actually ended the Time-War. It's set things up nicely for the 50th Anniversary.

On a side-note, John Hurt as Dr Who... I just discovered that, even at 40, it's possible to have a nerdgasm...

[karajorma]

Indeed.

I loved the episode. I really can't add that much to that as I'm still getting over that last revelation.


EDIT : Having suitably calmed down, all I can say now is....November! I have to wait until November!

[Nuke]

good episode i though. i really need to go back and re watch some classic doctor. any particular dr who series you would suggest?

[karajorma]

I need to go back and watch some of the classic stuff myself. Anything with the Daleks in is generally quite watchable IIRC. There's a reason why they are the considered the Big Bad of the TV show.

Unfortunately I haven't seen any of the old shows since they originally aired. With the exception of a great many years back when they showed one serial from each of the doctors.

[Valathil]

Well, don't know who else watched it, but very good episode, at least if you know the history of Doctor Who.

I first thought that the 'new' Doctor was the Valeyard, but it appears that this may actually be the Doctor who lived before Ecclestone, the one who actually ended the Time-War. It's set things up nicely for the 50th Anniversary.

On a side-note, John Hurt as Dr Who... I just discovered that, even at 40, it's possible to have a nerdgasm...

But if JohnHurt!Doctor is between McGann & Ecclestone then the whole numbering scheme wouldn't be right. Ecclestone would be the 10th, Tennant the 11th and Smith the 12th which would be a MASSSSSSSIIIIIIIIVE Retcon since even in universe they refer to Smith as the "Eleventh".

[General Battuta]

If he's an unspeakable incarnation of the Doctor, one that they/he considers a betrayal, it seems to make sense he'd be elided from memory so thoroughly he wouldn't get a number. He's supposed to be secret, right? How could he be secret if everybody was like 'hang on, why are you number twelve'

[Flipside]

And, as Matt Smith's Doctor put it, he may be a regeneration of the Time Lord who chose the name of 'The Doctor', but he is NOT considered even by himself, to be representative of that name, so Matt is, to his own mind, the 11th Doctor, even if he is the 12th regeneration of that Time Lord.

[karajorma]

The other possibility is that he's the Doctor from before the Doctor's first appearance. It kinda makes sense that having done something even worse than ending the Time War, he'd choose the name The Doctor and be committed to helping people.

Personally I tend to think that he's the regeneration involved in the Time War is a more likely explanation but the other one is possible. I don't believe he's the Valeyard or any future incarnation because Clara never saw the 12th and 13th Doctors. Plus we all know that the show is going to gimmick in extra regenerations if they ever get to the point where they have to kill the 13th doctor , so she should have seen the 14th+

[Phantom Hoover]

oh ****, i just had a vision of moffat bringing back the cartmel masterplan

i won't be sleeping tonight, that's for sure

[Flipside]

The other possibility is that he's the Doctor from before the Doctor's first appearance. It kinda makes sense that having done something even worse than ending the Time War, he'd choose the name The Doctor and be committed to helping people.

Personally I tend to think that he's the regeneration involved in the Time War is a more likely explanation but the other one is possible. I don't believe he's the Valeyard or any future incarnation because Clara never saw the 12th and 13th Doctors. Plus we all know that the show is going to gimmick in extra regenerations if they ever get to the point where they have to kill the 13th doctor , so she should have seen the 14th+

Yup, it was the one plothole that occured to me, that the Doctor spoke of the timeline containing Doctors who hadn't existed yet, and yet Clara never saw them and the G.I. never, apparently, attacked them and she specifically stated 11 faces.

At least if it is the 'real' 9th, they can use the excuse that because the War is time-locked, all his actions are inaccessible and unchangeable, hence he could not be touched by either the G.I. or Clara in that particular regeneration.

The real question, to my mind, is will the 50th be the 'Punishment of the Doctor', or the 'Redemption of the Doctor'

Edit: Either way, I think Trenzalore will be totally ret-conned from the series by the end of it, because there are three questions that still sit in my mind at this stage :

1) Who was the 'just some woman' who gave Clara the Tardis number (probably River Song in the future, since allegedly this was the first time they met, though River has lots of practice at pretending this kind of thing)
2) The self-presented one of Rivers' continued existence after Clara had left (another good reason why this wasn't her last appearance)
3) The question of the TARDIS' destruction a few series ago, which I suspect is linked to an upcoming interaction with the Time War in the 50th Anniversary, since if there's one group of people who could initiate some kind of self-destruct on the TARDIS, it is the Time Lords.

Edit 2: Also, it's never been cleared up exactly what kind of effect re-booting the entire Universe may have had on the Time War, was it protected from something even as extreme as that?

[General Battuta]

I think you put too much faith in the writers for planning - I'm not convinced they'll do anything meaningful with the Time War as they seem leery of working with the RTD staples, and if they do address the whole 'silence will fall' TARDIS exploding thing it'll be a scrambling attempt to patch up a plot point they've mostly forgotten about. Even the loose hooks from The Wedding of River Song were barely touched on in this episode, beyond the broad concept of Trenzalore.

Really I thought this episode, like most of this season, was quite mediocre. Doctor Who has felt like an arbitrary and mediocre puzzle built out of its own cannibalized mythology in the past few Moffat-penned episodes.

[Flipside]

I'll agree that I think too much was put into the stew, there's nothing wrong with overhanging plot-points, but if you include too many, the whole thing starts to become more question than answer, and just leaves the viewer feeling unfulfilled.

[Phantom Hoover]

btw, is it just me or does moffat really seem to be playing to the kind of teenage american fanbase you see increasingly on the internet? maybe i'm just reading too much into a shift in my own perspective but there seems to be a lot more focus on the doctor and him being ~zany and awesome~ than there was back in the rtd era and that really seems to appeal to those fans

[General Battuta]

John Hurt does own and I'm super happy to see him. This is all a bit frighteningly Silver Nemesis though

[Killer Whale]

Everyone knows the doctor fought in and ended the time war, not the valeyard. This is something else.

[Flipside]

I think the fact he is not the Valeyard, at least not as presented to the previous incarnations of the Doctor , has more or less been established by now. I suppose from the point of view of the Timelords themselves, the one who destroyed their entire race would be considered 'evil', but Hurts' regeneration was not evil for the sake of it, this character regretted and hated what he did, which does not echo the Valeyards mentality at all.

Possibly, from the point of view of the Timelords themselves, this one is the Valeyard, but like many things in Dr Who, it's a question of perspective.

[MP-Ryan]

Watched it, enjoyed it... frankly, I've enjoyed all of Matt Smith's episodes.  I'm ignoring the plot holes

[karajorma]

The Valeyard existed between the Doctor's 12th and 13th regeneration. I really doubt it's him.

Watched it, enjoyed it... frankly, I've enjoyed all of Matt Smith's episodes.  I'm ignoring the plot holes

Which plot holes?

[MP-Ryan]

Which plot holes?

The arc-related holes, none in this particular episode (though there was that oddity that refers to River as being dead, despite the fact that timeline-wise she's dead in every other episode she appears in, yet the Doctor never has a problem in those episodes).  Notably that there are a number of loose ends that have not been adequately tied up in the last few seasons.

At any rate, my money too is on John Hurt playing "The Doctor" during the Time War, pre-Eccelston.

[karajorma]

I believe the River being dead comments are based on the fact that the River everyone is interacting with is actually the copy from the Library rather than the real River Song. So she's dead in her own timeline. In the other episodes it would be a big spoiler to tell her that she's dead already.


One thing I do find funny though is how everyone expects The Silence's prophecy to be correct. When someone else's religion has a prophecy, everyone not of that religion generally ignores it as nonsense. When a TV religion has a prophecy, it's meant to come true at some point. I think the prophecy being true might be more interesting TV but given that The Silence have nearly destroyed the universe on three occasions (Once with the Pandorica, twice due to River Song, who only exists due to The Silence), it would be pretty amusing if they'd misinterpreted it.