Author Topic: Tropes vs Women  (Read 26412 times)

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Offline Lorric

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His point isn't that there are no issues, it's that nobody thinks of this dogma that she's spouting when making games. Games are meant to be fun. Games are meant to please people. They do so. If they don't, they don't make money.


... and are therefore free from criticism? Of course not. What *she* is saying is that the games are made using existing tropes, and the ones most commonly picked are sexist garbage. We can argue how sexist they are, if they can be salvageable, etc. But that kind of conversation only can take place once we acknowledge that the conversation is worth having, which Thunderf00t completely denies.

His criticism is even dumber when he acknowledges that she makes videos "for a market". Well then, if that's your rationale, why are you ****ing criticizing her? According to this dimwit, she's perfectly entitled to make these videos like this because she made a ton of money! Hey, what's your problem, thunderf00t, it's only the market!

What a moron.

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As the tropes go, she wants them wiped out. And that's wrong. The Damsel in distress trope is old, but it's still capable of being well used, and you're just stifling creativity if you remove it from a developer's arsenal. Every generation of gamers should be able to enjoy being the hero and saving the girl. That's why Double Dragon got it's remakes, because it's a classic. I haven't heard Double Dragion mentioned in years, but as soon as it came up I thought "Marian". I remembered the girl's name even though you barely see her.

Perhaps she does want them wiped out. Perhaps that's bad. But this is a whole another level conversation that these dimwits are not even willing to let others discuss. To point out these tropes, even if in an exagerated manner, is a very useful thing. It makes us aware of the ideologies that surrounds us everywhere, and how they are incredibly skewed in some manner.

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I'll give you that the "bollocks" part was unnecessary. There's nothing wrong with having an opinion, but she's so arrogant, just telling you how you think and how the game makes you think and how you should think, and it doesn't work like that.

Yes, I think ideologies function *exactly* like that, they are subtle and they tell you things, even though you might think they are "stoopid" and "too obvious" for your intelligence and so on. (That's the main reason why advertizing always works, despite all our cynicism towards them, "ahhh as if I'd buy anything just because it showed on tv", yes, yes you will).

Arrogance might be bad, but the level of abuse she got is way over the top. That's unexcusable.
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Hi Luis.

I'm surprised you called that Thunderf00t guy a moron. I thought you liked him. Maybe not anymore...

I think he just thinks she is 100% wrong. Now I don't know the guy, but you seemed to think he was intelligent before this, so I'd be surprised if he thought the actual conversation wasn't worth having. Did he ever say she wasn't entitled to making them? I can't remember now, it's been a while since I watched it, but I certainly don't oppose her right to make them. Especially when people have paid for them.

These people that attacked her with the abuse campaign, I certainly oppose them. They are fools, and I'm sure they contributed a great deal to the money she got in her kickstarter campaign by way of sympathy. Nice going fools. You helped her. All you did was put money in her pocket and strengthen her resolve.

How do you feel about wiping these tropes out entirely? I'm sure that's what she wants.

You know advertising never works on me. I decide what I want and seek it out. Others don't decide for me. I know it does work on others though. But advertising is overt, not subtle. It is focused and targetted. The message is clear.

As I've always said, the abuse was wrong. Terrible in fact. I'd like to see these people punished. But that shouldn't stop people who aren't abusive from having an opinion in opposition to hers, just as it shouldn't stop her being able to voice hers, despite me strongly disagreeing with it.

 

Offline Luis Dias

  • 211
No I don't think he was intelligent before this and now he's a moron. I just used the word moron because he likes to use it quite a lot. I do however think that whenever the theme of "Feminism" comes up, he just goes almost full retard, and that's sad to watch.

And of course, I applaud the fact that everyone has their own opinion. It's just that it's amazingly stupid to be hypocritical about it.

TF says that Anita cannot criticize games because they have a MARKET. Is this the dumbest argument ever? Specially considering she made a ton of money on her new series in Kickstarter? I mean, if that's an argument, then logic dictates that TF should *NOT* criticize Anita.

Another level of hypocrisy is the sheer amount of blindness he is engaged with when he claims that she has to prove that sexism in games have consequences in our real lives. Because violence in games don't have good evidence, sexism might have even less.

OK, now work this out. Sexism in games is alright because Violence is also right. Why not racism? Why should we not accept games that were racist, from this ridiculous point of view? "Heck, Anita, you can't prove that these Racist games are effecting society, therefore don't tell me these are dangerous things that we should not enjoy!"

See how abhorrent arguing like this really is?

 

Offline Lorric

  • 212
No I don't think he was intelligent before this and now he's a moron. I just used the word moron because he likes to use it quite a lot. I do however think that whenever the theme of "Feminism" comes up, he just goes almost full retard, and that's sad to watch.

And of course, I applaud the fact that everyone has their own opinion. It's just that it's amazingly stupid to be hypocritical about it.

TF says that Anita cannot criticize games because they have a MARKET. Is this the dumbest argument ever? Specially considering she made a ton of money on her new series in Kickstarter? I mean, if that's an argument, then logic dictates that TF should *NOT* criticize Anita.

Another level of hypocrisy is the sheer amount of blindness he is engaged with when he claims that she has to prove that sexism in games have consequences in our real lives. Because violence in games don't have good evidence, sexism might have even less.

OK, now work this out. Sexism in games is alright because Violence is also right. Why not racism? Why should we not accept games that were racist, from this ridiculous point of view? "Heck, Anita, you can't prove that these Racist games are effecting society, therefore don't tell me these are dangerous things that we should not enjoy!"

See how abhorrent arguing like this really is?

Alright.

I'm sure he means the games are catering to their market. She is catering to her market. She doesn't like the games, he doesn't like her opinion. But neither are in the target market of the other.

But we're not talking overt sexism. At least not in the case of the Damsel in Distress trope. Back in the depths of this thread I said that I thought the real problem was all the scantily clad pretty girls you see in games these days, and Anita is supposedly going to make a video on it. I might end up agreeing with that one if it comes.

An overtly racist game would be bad. But racism as an element of a story would not.

 

Offline Luis Dias

  • 211
No of course not. The brilliant "Walking Dead" game touches on racism quite a lot and in a marvelous way.

 
Was it here or in that other thread where the "we have to be sexist because those horrible prejudiced white males we market everything to just wouldn't be able to stomach strong female characters" argument was pointed out as being a self-perpetuating myth with a healthy dose of psychological projection?
The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell.

 

Offline Lorric

  • 212
No of course not. The brilliant "Walking Dead" game touches on racism quite a lot and in a marvelous way.

I haven't played it. I looked into it a little, and it seems the game is played on quick time events, so I wouldn't like that. If it had been a kind of co-op survival/shooter game with AI team mates and strong story, I'd have seriously considered a purchase. As it is, I think it would be good to watch an LP of it, I haven't really encountered racism in games before outside of fictional races racism.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Was it here or in that other thread where the "we have to be sexist because those horrible prejudiced white males we market everything to just wouldn't be able to stomach strong female characters" argument was pointed out as being a self-perpetuating myth with a healthy dose of psychological projection?

I don't know but it should be in every thread.

 
It is, of course, here. The thing that most annoys me is that the people blaming the depiction of women in games as being the result of the market power of the nebulous (but obviously bigoted) Young Male Gamer Demographic are more often than not young male gamers themselves; so whatever they think they're achieving by diverting the blame from the industry to themselves, I haven't a clue.
The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell.

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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I'm sure he means the games are catering to their market.

As I observed in this thread before, you can't be Writing Women Badly without Writing Badly.

Even if approached from a purely quality-of-the-work standpoint, sexism typically drags the game down by applying strange and inhuman thoughts, behaviors, and actions to people in the game. Everyone aspires to make something good, to play something good. This makes sexist portrayals more akin to foot-bullet than any market demographic to be catered to.
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Offline MP-Ryan

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I'm sure he means the games are catering to their market.

As I observed in this thread before, you can't be Writing Women Badly without Writing Badly.

Even if approached from a purely quality-of-the-work standpoint, sexism typically drags the game down by applying strange and inhuman thoughts, behaviors, and actions to people in the game. Everyone aspires to make something good, to play something good. This makes sexist portrayals more akin to foot-bullet than any market demographic to be catered to.

Indeed.  The best-written female characters appear in the best-written games.  You typically do not find a well-written game with atrocious female characters, nor do you typically find well-written female characters in atrociously-written games.

I keep reading this thread, but I've been away for a few days and having just gotten caught up I'm not entirely convinced I want to re-engage in much more depth.
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