[Lorric]

I looked at her videos on youtube back when it first hit the fan, and was very much unimpressed. In particular, she tried to decree what I was supposed to think, which is a big no-no, and she made up words for perceived issues instead of showing these issues actually mattered.

This new video, however, is excellent. The language is clear, the issues are well documented, and I am given space and time to make up my own mind as to what I think about it.

After giving it some thought, I fully agree with Ms Sarkeesian. I have but two nitpicks:
1. Violence against women is not epidemic. It is endemic, which is arguably worse in this case.
2. Her focus may ultimately be too narrow. Most of what she criticizes could be subsumed under "terrible writing". There's plenty of that even without misogyny.

In conclusion, I'd say that her kickstarter money is well used. Her videos have improved and her message is better off for it.

Now that's interesting. I got dead on the same impression after viewing the first video. Yet you like the second. Let's see if I do too...

[The E]

2. Her focus may ultimately be too narrow. Most of what she criticizes could be subsumed under "terrible writing". There's plenty of that even without misogyny.

Yes, certainly, but keeping a narrow focus is necessary in order to convey the message in a focussed way. Putting these things under the heading of "Bad Writing" is, imho, not particularly useful. Bad writing can take many forms, but misogynism is a rather more serious issue.

[EvidenceOfFault]

self-snip

Yes, certainly, but keeping a narrow focus is necessary in order to convey the message in a focussed way. Putting these things under the heading of "Bad Writing" is, imho, not particularly useful. Bad writing can take many forms, but misogynism is a rather more serious issue.

Sure. But there are two outcomes:
In an ideal world, her campaign will end misogynistic bad writing, leading to a golden age where all bad writing will disappear as fans realize they don't have to suffer through it any longer.

or

In the real world, creators of popular media will continue to use bad writing (including tropes degrading both women and men) en masse in spite of all attempts to stop them, because good writing is about the hardest thing to do. Using a throwaway plot is simply too convenient as long as the product sells.

But as I said, I agree with Ms Sakeesian. I hope her campaign raises awareness. Maybe people will stop buying games with terrible writing.

[An4ximandros]

 Every video can be summed up in: We'd like to see strong female characters. Therein lies the problem. Any video that lasts more than ten seconds is overfunded at this point. All the extra minutes are nothing more than blunt ways to feed directorial ego.

 If miss Sarkeesian actually took the time and effort to create an unbiased, informative and complete documentary that showcased both the positive and negative tropes in video games and their impact on society's treatment of women, I believe her work would have much more mass appeal.

[General Battuta]

Every video can be summed up in: We'd like to see strong female characters. Therein lies the problem. Any video that lasts more than ten seconds is overfunded at this point.

No they can't, and thus no it doesn't, and no they aren't. There aren't any (many, at least) mustache-twirling maestros of misogyny gouting out bikini lasses, or many oblivious wide-eyed ingenues happily writing their stories of damsels and heroes unaware that We Want Strong Female Characters. The problem is not one that can be solved by making people realize that 'we want this'. People don't know how to do it, they don't know why they should do it; they don't have a plan to execute the objective 'be better at writing women' without ****ing up.

I just spent the weekend at an SF/F writers' retreat where I was the only guy and even as someone who's spent years and years working on my ability to write women and write them well, I still find myself ****ing these things up. One sentence is not enough.

[Lorric]

Well I strongly disagree with her. She's twisting everything when it doesn't need to be twisted. So what if it's used in some games just as a vehicle to get the hero moving, or get the player motivated. It's a game first and foremost, not a movie. If the gameplay is good, I'm good. First and foremost for me. I don't relate to any of the things she is saying. If I find myself in a game which contains a damsel in distress, I don't think about any of this garbage I just go off and save the girl. It's a classic trope and it will stay a classic. Trying to guilt us when when we don't need to be guilted. I did find the "Euthanised damsels" to be rather unsettling though, the sheer volume of them in recent years, that's new to me. Probably because they would likely fall outside the kind of games I look at.

[EvidenceOfFault]

Every video can be summed up in: We'd like to see strong female characters. Therein lies the problem. Any video that lasts more than ten seconds is overfunded at this point. All the extra minutes are nothing more than blunt ways to feed directorial ego.

 If miss Sarkeesian actually took the time and effort to create an unbiased, informative and complete documentary that showcased both the positive and negative tropes in video games and their impact on society's treatment of women, I believe her work would have much more mass appeal.

I disagree.
The problem isn't a lack of strong females, and I don't see Ms Sakeesian arguing that way. The problem is using cardboard cut-outs instead of characters.

Say a company makes a game (or and other media). Said game is a shooter or something of that calibre (pun intended). Any elaborate plot might well get in the way, and take away agency from the player (as Sarkeesian notes, the game mechanics tend to be limited). So the developers need a simple plot, an excuse plot. Unfortunately, many of the most popular (to developers, due to cost) excuse plots tend to be misogynistic.
In addition, the developers then make it even worse by trying to give "emotional depth" to their excuse plots. Again, the contract goes to the lowest bidder, which is the lowest common denominator: Men tend to find distressed women "emotionally engaging". So women are tortured and fridged, as noted in the video.

I perceive the problem to be right in the beginning, using badly-written excuse plots. The women may well be collateral damage.

[The E]

Well I strongly disagree with her. She's twisting everything when it doesn't need to be twisted. So what if it's used in some games just as a vehicle to get the hero moving, or get the player motivated. It's a game first and foremost, not a movie. If the gameplay is good, I'm good. First and foremost for me. I don't relate to any of the things she is saying. If I find myself in a game which contains a damsel in distress, I don't think about any of this garbage I just go off and save the girl. It's a classic trope and it will stay a classic. Trying to guilt us when when we don't need to be guilted. I did find the "Euthanised damsels" to be rather unsettling though, the sheer volume of them in recent years, that's new to me. Probably because they would likely fall outside the kind of games I look at.

Lorric, thank you for being a prime example of the kind of person that is part of the hate campaign against Ms Sarkeesian and this project. Thank you for being the exact kind of person that makes closing the comment sections for these videos on youtube and sensible sites like PAR necessary.

In one paragraph, you have shown exactly why this project exists, you have demonstrated exactly what kind of ignorance regarding these issues is out there.

EDIT: What you just said was, in essence, that you are just as unreflected about the stories you play through as the people writing them. That's something that you should try to change if you want to be a part of this debate, and not just an interloper.

[IronBeer]

The E kinda ninja'd the point I was going to make, except I was going to speak generally. Ah what the Hell, I'll do it anyways.

The fact that this thread is following its current trajectory is proof enough that we (as in, the gamer community) really need to be having these conversations.

[Lorric]

Well I strongly disagree with her. She's twisting everything when it doesn't need to be twisted. So what if it's used in some games just as a vehicle to get the hero moving, or get the player motivated. It's a game first and foremost, not a movie. If the gameplay is good, I'm good. First and foremost for me. I don't relate to any of the things she is saying. If I find myself in a game which contains a damsel in distress, I don't think about any of this garbage I just go off and save the girl. It's a classic trope and it will stay a classic. Trying to guilt us when when we don't need to be guilted. I did find the "Euthanised damsels" to be rather unsettling though, the sheer volume of them in recent years, that's new to me. Probably because they would likely fall outside the kind of games I look at.

Lorric, thank you for being a prime example of the kind of person that is part of the hate campaign against Ms Sarkeesian and this project. Thank you for being the exact kind of person that makes closing the comment sections for these videos on youtube and sensible sites like PAR necessary.

In one paragraph, you have shown exactly why this project exists, you have demonstrated exactly what kind of ignorance regarding these issues is out there.

EDIT: What you just said was, in essence, that you are just as unreflected about the stories you play through as the people writing them. That's something that you should try to change if you want to be a part of this debate, and not just an interloper.

I do not hate her. I just disagree with her.

You have been trying to alienate me since my first post. I will talk to you, but only if you stop. Otherwise, I will just talk to the other people in the thread and ignore you.

[Qent]

First off, out of curiosity I watched Sarkeesian's Damsel in Distress Part 1 and found it surprisingly straightforward and non-inflammatory. However I think that her TED talk was slightly off base. I do not think that blaming everyone for the actions of 4chan is fair, nor do I think that her experience supports her theory of misogyny on a global scale. Does the Internet mob hate women and fear the loss of male dominance in the gaming industry? Maybe. But it seems more likely that they just spotted what they thought would be an easy target for quick fun and hit it hard. Ironically she might not be the villain in their "game": she could be the "ball," i.e. Damsel in Distress. Kudos to her though for pulling herself out of it and coming out ahead.

Also good job on War in Heaven and you should so get her to play it.

[EvidenceOfFault]

Also good job on War in Heaven and you should so get her to play it.

Yeah, but keep her away from Age of Aquarius. *cough* Elena *cough*

[Phantom Hoover]

do you mean eriana...

[EvidenceOfFault]

Possibly. I really don't care much for AoA though, so forgive me for not remembering the name of the plot device correctly. [/derail]

[The E]

I do not hate her. I just disagree with her.

You have been trying to alienate me since my first post. I will talk to you, but only if you stop. Otherwise, I will just talk to the other people in the thread and ignore you.

You do not disagree with her. You do not understand her. You do not have an appreciation for these issues beyond your personal likes and dislikes (as evidenced by you going off on a tangent about character designs). You are completely unaware of the implications being put on display in these videos.

It's a game first and foremost, not a movie. If the gameplay is good, I'm good. First and foremost for me. I don't relate to any of the things she is saying. If I find myself in a game which contains a damsel in distress, I don't think about any of this garbage I just go off and save the girl.

This quote of yours is why this project exists. This quote of yours demonstrates the amount of unreflected ignorance that is present in the gaming community about the issues of feminism. If you want to know why I posted this thread, this is the reason. If you want to know why I am on your ass about this and am unwilling to let the things you post here stand without challenging them, there's your answer.

[Qent]

Also good job on War in Heaven and you should so get her to play it.

Yeah, but keep her away from Age of Aquarius. *cough* Elena *cough*

I'm sure she was quite a capable woman.... If only she had been escaping on an Orion rather than an Elysium.

[Spoon]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpwBG2Dtpmk

I must thank you for bringing this to my attention.

Weeeeeeee booobies!

Hahaha oh man, this game is hilariously bad.
NSFW links hooo

Gender equality, also really uncomfortable looking 'neutral stance'
"Can I at least get some clothes?"

Why are these claws so effin' huge? Why do I get weapons before clothing?
I got gloves shortly after this and shoes a bit later.

Yay, I'm level 5 after 10 minute of playing. I finally get clothes. Can't wait to put these on.
"How come I'm now wearing even less?!"

[Lorric]

I was thinking about the damsel concept, and one game which has a straight up damsel in distress that I really like, that never made it into those videos is Kessen II.

You quite literally move heaven and Earth to save her. The game also has a few strong, though feminine, female characters. I'll just drop these two videos here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhFbChdSONA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lB4D7t6WGA8

Damn I wish those videos were better quality...

I do not hate her. I just disagree with her.

You have been trying to alienate me since my first post. I will talk to you, but only if you stop. Otherwise, I will just talk to the other people in the thread and ignore you.

You do not disagree with her. You do not understand her. You do not have an appreciation for these issues beyond your personal likes and dislikes (as evidenced by you going off on a tangent about character designs). You are completely unaware of the implications being put on display in these videos.

It's a game first and foremost, not a movie. If the gameplay is good, I'm good. First and foremost for me. I don't relate to any of the things she is saying. If I find myself in a game which contains a damsel in distress, I don't think about any of this garbage I just go off and save the girl.

This quote of yours is why this project exists. This quote of yours demonstrates the amount of unreflected ignorance that is present in the gaming community about the issues of feminism. If you want to know why I posted this thread, this is the reason. If you want to know why I am on your ass about this and am unwilling to let the things you post here stand without challenging them, there's your answer.

You can challenge me if you're civil with me. You haven't been.

Well, what can I say, if you say I don't understand. In that case it just comes down to us saying "You're wrong." "No, you're wrong."

I fully believe in gender equality. I treat women as equals. I don't play online, but if I did, I wouldn't start throwing around gender based insults at girls or anything, I'd just treat them as players like everyone else. And it wouldn't feel any different to lose to a male or a female.

[Lorric]

Hahaha oh man, this game is hilariously bad.
NSFW links hooo

Gender equality, also really uncomfortable looking 'neutral stance'
"Can I at least get some clothes?"

Why are these claws so effin' huge? Why do I get weapons before clothing?
I got gloves shortly after this and shoes a bit later.

Yay, I'm level 5 after 10 minute of playing. I finally get clothes. Can't wait to put these on.
"How come I'm now wearing even less?!"

Ah, Spoon. Now you're a fun one for this thread, aren't you. You have a mod, and it's loaded with female characters, and they're strong for the most part. And also unashamedly portrayed as pretty sex symbols. I wonder what she would make of your mod...

[Phantom Hoover]

I fully believe in gender equality. I treat women as equals. I don't play online, but if I did, I wouldn't start throwing around gender based insults at girls or anything, I'd just treat them as players like everyone else. And it wouldn't feel any different to lose to a male or a female.

this is a major root of the problem: people often think of 'sexism' as a discrete personal stance which can be eliminated as a social problem by making all sexists revoke those beliefs or by ostracising them into irrelevance; but that just doesn't reflect the reality of the situation