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Author Topic: POLL: The Manic Pixie Dream Girl (Tropes vs. Women)  (Read 22487 times)

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Offline BloodEagle

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Re: POLL: The Manic Pixie Dream Girl (Tropes vs. Women)
I generally refer to Obama as Obama. I’d probably use his first name if it was easier to type than his second name [...]

Bull****.

Barack is just as easy to type as (if not easier than) Obama on a QWERTY interface.

Unless you're missing a finger, or something.

Are you missing a finger, or something?

 

Offline Lorric

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Re: POLL: The Manic Pixie Dream Girl (Tropes vs. Women)
I generally refer to Obama as Obama. I’d probably use his first name if it was easier to type than his second name [...]

Bull****.

Barack is just as easy to type as (if not easier than) Obama on a QWERTY interface.

Unless you're missing a finger, or something.

Are you missing a finger, or something?

You may actually be right. I found myself switching from Barack to Obama on purpose in the original post. In my mind I think of him as Obama. When I have spoken of him I have said Obama.

Please don't join the other haters. Not after you helped me with Grandia II.

 

Offline Polpolion

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Re: POLL: The Manic Pixie Dream Girl (Tropes vs. Women)
If I'm telling people I'm not and they don't believe me, that's their problem. No one has ever accused me of being sexist in my life.

I don't think I'm not sexist, I know I'm not sexist. I don't want to be sexist. I control what I am and am not. So I am not sexist.


I never say such things as “ "Well, s/he just needs to get laid" or "This isn't a woman's/a man's job" ”

Why don’t you go after the more overt things? I would start with the most overt (and to me biggest issues) and work down.

You have a very serious misunderstanding about how sexism works. Overt sexism is a symptom of the biases you get from how you are raised and what you absorb from your surroundings. Treating sexist acts without paying any attention to the thoughts behind the act really won't accomplish anything other than convincing the person that sexism is nothing other than telling women to get back to the kitchen, and you wind up with people like you  that are convinced that they're not at all sexist.

 

Offline Lorric

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Re: POLL: The Manic Pixie Dream Girl (Tropes vs. Women)
If I'm telling people I'm not and they don't believe me, that's their problem. No one has ever accused me of being sexist in my life.

I don't think I'm not sexist, I know I'm not sexist. I don't want to be sexist. I control what I am and am not. So I am not sexist.


I never say such things as “ "Well, s/he just needs to get laid" or "This isn't a woman's/a man's job" ”

Why don’t you go after the more overt things? I would start with the most overt (and to me biggest issues) and work down.

You have a very serious misunderstanding about how sexism works. Overt sexism is a symptom of the biases you get from how you are raised and what you absorb from your surroundings. Treating sexist acts without paying any attention to the thoughts behind the act really won't accomplish anything other than convincing the person that sexism is nothing other than telling women to get back to the kitchen, and you wind up with people like you  that are convinced that they're not at all sexist.

I understand why it's bad not to say those things, which is why I don't say them. It's not simply to not be branded a sexist.

To me, sexism is simply favouring one gender over another for no other reason than their gender.

 

Offline Bobboau

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Re: POLL: The Manic Pixie Dream Girl (Tropes vs. Women)
ok, to try and make this discussion interesting. one of the major problems with feminism today is it represents a moral position that makes you feel morally superior to the regulars who just go about their lives being horrible people, unlike the just and righteous you. This is a problem because that makes it observer bias candy. So, let us do a little reversal of positions. let us see if any pro sarkeesian (or feminist or whatever appropriate label I should use for said faction) people can provide an example of any activity, especially an adult and fun activity (bonus points for is it has any sort of sexual overtones to it) that cannot be construed as sexist and repressive of women. I would then like supporters of the patriarchy to see if they can construed them as such.
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Offline Polpolion

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Re: POLL: The Manic Pixie Dream Girl (Tropes vs. Women)
one of the major problems with feminism today is it represents a moral position that makes you feel morally superior to the regulars who just go about their lives being horrible people, unlike the just and righteous you.

This isn't a problem with feminism, it's a problem with holding moral positions. Why would you continue to hold a belief if you felt it made you morally inferior?

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: POLL: The Manic Pixie Dream Girl (Tropes vs. Women)
If you have the most basic grasp of feminism you're aware that you yourself are likely to hold a lot of sexist attitudes. It's about awareness, not righteousness.

There are a ****load of adult and fun activities that don't have to be sexist or repressive of women. Here are some examples!

Sex!
Video games!
Erotic dancing!
Driving!
Fiction!

But they all can be sexist. People often miscontrue sexism as a binary present/absent quality. It's more about whether a work of fiction, or an act of public speech, or a behavior, does a good or bad job at handling gender.

 

Offline Bobboau

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Re: POLL: The Manic Pixie Dream Girl (Tropes vs. Women)
I didn't ask for activities, I asked for examples of activities. That is, describe/provide an example of the form you think has none of the negative qualities. Assume I have maid the claim that no such activity exists (I'm not actually but for the sake of argument...) disprove via counterexample.

This isn't a problem with feminism, it's a problem with holding moral positions. Why would you continue to hold a belief if you felt it made you morally inferior?
...right. I said A (feminism) is a subset of B (moral position), and B has problem X (severe risk of observation bias), therefore A has problem X.
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Offline The E

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Re: POLL: The Manic Pixie Dream Girl (Tropes vs. Women)
I didn't ask for activities, I asked for examples of activities. That is, describe/provide an example of the form you think has none of the negative qualities. Assume I have maid the claim that no such activity exists (I'm not actually but for the sake of argument...) disprove via counterexample.

Pointless tangent is pointless. You just want to play some semantic game, but here, I'll indulge you with a single example: Playing a multiplayer round of Mario Kart.
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: POLL: The Manic Pixie Dream Girl (Tropes vs. Women)
I didn't ask for activities, I asked for examples of activities. That is, describe/provide an example of the form you think has none of the negative qualities. Assume I have maid the claim that no such activity exists (I'm not actually but for the sake of argument...) disprove via counterexample.

You've made the claim that no activity exists that cannot be construed as sexist or oppressive? I - sure, this is obviously true; anyone can claim that any activity is sexist or oppressive. But not all of these claims are equally defensible.

This isn't a problem with feminism, it's a problem with holding moral positions. Why would you continue to hold a belief if you felt it made you morally inferior?
...right. I said A (feminism) is a subset of B (moral position), and B has problem X (severe risk of observation bias), therefore A has problem X.
[/quote]

Could you be more specific about 'observation bias'? I ask this not because of skepticism but because a lot of my scientific training has been in the study of biases and heuristics so I'd like to be as precise as possible.

 

Offline Black Wolf

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Re: POLL: The Manic Pixie Dream Girl (Tropes vs. Women)
At the risk of actually talking about the original topic, I wonder how carefully she's really vetted the examples she uses in her video. I'll admit, that while many of these films I haven't seen, the two that I have seen seem to stand out more as subversions of the MPDG trope than supporting them.

The two I'm talking about are 500 Days of Summer, which I've only seen once, and Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind, which I've seen a few times and really, really like. There are spoilers below, obviously - if you've not seen Eternal sunshine at the very least I strongly recommend it before reading below, the story works better if you don't know what's coming.

Anyway, I'll start with Summer because I can't go as in depth into that one (due to less familiarity with the film). Zooey Deschanel's character seems to fit all the standard personality traits of the MPDG - hell, she's made playing them something of a speciality (Yes Man springs to mind, as does her character on The New Girl). But the film doesn't follow the supposedly well worn path that these sorts of films are meant to follow. It starts out typical enough - Joseph Gordon-Levitt's character is in something of a funk, working in a profession he doesn't care about and not particularly happy, when he meets Summer, and suddenly everything changes. She's whimsical and fun, and after spending time with her, his whole outlook on life changes (which the film plays up pretty obviously through the animations and his greeting card stuff). If the film were following the proposed path, it would stop here, the credits would roll and they'd live happily ever after.

But, of course, that's not what happens. What we actually see is that JGL's character runs smack into the reality wall when Summer turns out to be not the simple 2 dimensional cutout he thought she was. She had her her opinions about love and relationships before she met her, and they don't change as a result of their time together. The two are fundamentally incompatible, and they stay that way until they break up. The rest of the movie is him pining over her, wishing that she was what he wanted her to be - that doesn't stop until he finally forces himself to accept that she's gone - when events other than his relationship with her have changed her perspective. The last thing we see of his character in the movie is when he meets another woman - one whom he actually has things in common with, and whom he can (it's implied) start a serious relationship with as an equal, and not as a caricature. To me, that seems like the opposite message than the typical MPDG storyl.

Eternal Sunshine is, IMO, an even better example of subverting the trope, because it comes at it from both sides. Although told non-chronologically, the story essentially again starts out in fairly typical MPDG territory - Joel (Jim Carrey's character) is depressed and lonely, his previous relationship having not worked out, when he meets Clementine (Kate Winslet) who forces him to enjoy living his life - they break into someone's beach-house, go make snow angels, all that jazz. However, as their relationship went on, Joel is forced to confront the fact that Clementine isn't what he initially thought she was - not because there's fundamentally anything different about her, but because he was seeing her as the simplistic MPDG, not as the full person with the full personality that would eventually lead to him pulling away during the "real" phase of their relationship.

The other side I was talking about is the relationship between Clementine and Elijah Wood's character (who's name I can't remember). Essentially, Elijah Wood is using Joel and Clementine's memories of one another to seduce Clementine because, it's implied, he wants her to be his own MPDG, or at least he wants to be with him. His attempts to coerce her though, to essentially take her by stealth, are pretty spectacularly rejected, and she ends up back with Joel, starting again in a relationship that, while flawed, was at least real, and between two people, not one person and another person's idea of what they are.

So yeah - like I said, I haven't seen many of the movies on the list, but the two I have seen seem to me to be rather a long way off the story she's trying to tell. The video's author obviously has an agenda (just like literally everyone else on the planet), and she's doing her best to present it/support it, but the fact that these two films are thrown in there, with no qualification or explanation, as part of her series of negative examples makes me wonder about the veracity of the rest of her examples and her overall argument.
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Offline The E

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Re: POLL: The Manic Pixie Dream Girl (Tropes vs. Women)
What you just said there is the biggest problem Ms Sarkeesians' efforts have. It is too easy to poke holes in one or two examples she uses, and use that to cast doubt on the issue as a whole. That being said, I'm of the opinion that these videos are primer material, not exhaustive explorations of issues, and as such should be taken as starting points for inquiries, not comprehensive references.
If I'm just aching this can't go on
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There must be changes, miss to feel strong
I really need lifе to touch me
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Offline Bobboau

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Re: POLL: The Manic Pixie Dream Girl (Tropes vs. Women)
Could you be more specific about 'observation bias'? I ask this not because of skepticism but because a lot of my scientific training has been in the study of biases and heuristics so I'd like to be as precise as possible.

I was specifically meaning confirmation bias.

Playing a multiplayer round of Mario Kart.

you mean the game that the one-to-two girl playable characters drive around in a cute pink frilly racer while wearing dresses which are not suitable for racing, but rather more aptly engineered for looking attractive for men?
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Offline The E

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Re: POLL: The Manic Pixie Dream Girl (Tropes vs. Women)
The game in which said racer does not have any special disadvantages or advantages that would make the character an objectively inferior or superior choice, yes.

BTW, this is the end of that tangent, Bobboau. You're just trolling.
If I'm just aching this can't go on
I came from chasing dreams to feel alone
There must be changes, miss to feel strong
I really need lifе to touch me
--Evergrey, Where August Mourns

 

Offline Bobboau

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Re: POLL: The Manic Pixie Dream Girl (Tropes vs. Women)
Disagreeing with admin == trolling, nice.

No, my point is there exists no activity that you cannot find sexism in if you look for it. Confirmation bias.

You have a game where the woman character is a captive that needs to be save, she is perpetuating an image of women as been helpless, a game where the woman character is a badass mofo who brute force dominates all her opponents well then you are sending the message that women can only win if they take on male characteristics.
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Offline The E

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Re: POLL: The Manic Pixie Dream Girl (Tropes vs. Women)
*Sigh*

Okay, challenge for you, find the sexism in the common activity known as "reading a book". Given your ability to find sexism anywhere, this should be possible even without naming any specific book.
If I'm just aching this can't go on
I came from chasing dreams to feel alone
There must be changes, miss to feel strong
I really need lifе to touch me
--Evergrey, Where August Mourns

 

Offline Bobboau

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Re: POLL: The Manic Pixie Dream Girl (Tropes vs. Women)
which book?
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Offline The E

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Re: POLL: The Manic Pixie Dream Girl (Tropes vs. Women)
You're the person who claimed that all activities that can be done can be construed as sexist. As such, no specific book should be necessary.

But again I shall indulge you. How about "The OpenGL Shading Language, Third Edition".
If I'm just aching this can't go on
I came from chasing dreams to feel alone
There must be changes, miss to feel strong
I really need lifе to touch me
--Evergrey, Where August Mourns

 

Offline Bobboau

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Re: POLL: The Manic Pixie Dream Girl (Tropes vs. Women)
[edit]crap didn't see the second line[/edit]reading a book is no more specific than playing a video game. but fine.

what book are you going to read? Something made by western civilization most likely, but perhaps something from eastern sources, or middle eastern. all of these sources are patriarchal in nature and will undoubtedly communicate gender roles that are conformant to said patriarchy.


"The OpenGL Shading Language, Third Edition"
The book with 7 authors, none of which are women. Clearly women have no roles in this industry.

I'll admit, technical manuals are about the closest thing you can get to being resistant to this sort of thing.

Keep in mind my point is that if you come at it from a position of "there is oppression of women here" you will be able to find a way to satisfy your prejudice.
and in a flagrant appeal to authority I would just like to point out that as soon as I was able to put my proposition into understandable terms even The General conceded it.
this is obviously true
« Last Edit: June 10, 2013, 05:36:44 am by Bobboau »
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Offline Polpolion

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Re: POLL: The Manic Pixie Dream Girl (Tropes vs. Women)
Keep in mind my point is that if you come at it from a position of "there is oppression of women here" you will be able to find a way to satisfy your prejudice.
and in a flagrant appeal to authority I would just like to point out that as soon as I was able to put my proposition into understandable terms even The General conceded it.
this is obviously true

As battuta pointed out in the post you quoted, anyone can say anything is sexist if they want to, but he goes on to say that, again obviously, people aren't always reasonable in what they say. Several pages back (or maybe in the other thread) Karajorma posted a "feminist critique" of Firefly which I think is a good example of someone claiming something to be sexist but that claim is not really reasonable. This is a perfectly valid argument you're making but I'm not sure how it's interesting. That said, do you actually want to contest the legitimacy of the claims Sarkeesian made, or was this all you had to say?