[Joif]

Hello!
I read the wiki but I didn't find what I'm looking for, so I'm posting here to ask some questions (hoping to have not missed related threads).
The community has the source code of FreeSpace 2 but, in order to play the game, one must have a copy of the original FreeSpace 2 in order to use its game data.
Here I'm a bit confused, why we need the FreeSpace 2 game data?
What is it?
Can it be completely replaced with a community version? If so, why it isn't there yet?
Thank you for your answers.

[Luis Dias]

Freespace and Freespace 2 are legally bound by IP rights that are not open sourced as of 2013. Some of those were bought recently by Interplay, and what that means is that no one can share these two games freely without being illegal about it.

The engine of the game was made Source Code more than ten years ago, and it's this portion that has been largely improved and developed by the community.

[Kopachris]

The source code is different from the game data.  The game data includes assets like ships, weapons, and missions.  The source code is only the part that tells the computer how to read the game data files and what to do with them.  The source code is what's free.  The game data is not.

[Jeff Vader]

The engine of the game was made Source Code more than ten years ago

The game engine had to have been source code before the game was even released. Unless the executable just randomly appeared one day as a result of a Windows error or something.

[Rodo]

Game data is all content used by the engine that let's you play the game, eg: Model files for ships, textures, sound files, music files, movies, etc, etc.
All that is part of the Freespace 1 & 2 IP's, and thus cannot be distributed for free.

[Luis Dias]

The engine of the game was made Source Code more than ten years ago

The game engine had to have been source code before the game was even released. Unless the executable just randomly appeared one day as a result of a Windows error or something.

What are you talking about. Freespace 2's game engine was Volition's IP. Game data was Interplay's. When Volition was bought by THQ, V understood they would never make FS3, so they open sourced the engine.

[Jeff Vader]

The engine of the game was made Source Code more than ten years ago

The game engine had to have been source code before the game was even released. Unless the executable just randomly appeared one day as a result of a Windows error or something.

What are you talking about. Freespace 2's game engine was Volition's IP. Game data was Interplay's. When Volition was bought by THQ, V understood they would never make FS3, so they open sourced the engine.

Do you program?

[Kopachris]

The engine of the game was made Source Code more than ten years ago

The game engine had to have been source code before the game was even released. Unless the executable just randomly appeared one day as a result of a Windows error or something.

What are you talking about. Freespace 2's game engine was Volition's IP. Game data was Interplay's. When Volition was bought by THQ, V understood they would never make FS3, so they open sourced the engine.

He's pointing out that your sentence was ambiguous in meaning.  "The engine of the game was made Source Code" implies that the engine of the game itself was made, and then became source code at a later date, which is stupid because computer programs don't go from binary to source code, but go from source code to binary.  That's why it's called "source" code.

[Luis Dias]

Sorry, I messed up. I meant "open source". DERP

[Joif]

But will the FS2 game data be always a requirement for every work done by this community?

Game data is all content used by the engine that let's you play the game, eg: Model files for ships, textures, sound files, music files, movies, etc, etc.
All that is part of the Freespace 1 & 2 IP's, and thus cannot be distributed for free.

Say that I want to reimplement an original ship (with new code, new model, etc.) so that it is part of the game data instead of the old one. Do the IP rights prevent me to do it?
Generally speaking, do the IP rights prevent to completely reimplement the game data so that the new one is open source?

[Luis Dias]

Yes, because they are intellectual property, they include the design, the names, the intent, the writing, etc.

[AdmiralRalwood]

But will the FS2 game data be always a requirement for every work done by this community?

No; there are "total conversions" that discard the FreeSpace universe in favour of modding-team-created game data, which can be (and are) distributed completely free.

[MatthTheGeek]

Diaspora and TBP, for example.

Has WoD moved to standalone yet ?

[Arpit]

Diaspora and TBP, for example.

Has WoD moved to standalone yet ?

WoD has a Faustus in some mission. Right?

[SpardaSon21]

Spoon's basically rebuilding all of Wings of Dawn at this point, so I don't know what's up.  He'll probably go standalone though if he can get the assets needed for it.

[The E]

But will the FS2 game data be always a requirement for every work done by this community?

It will always be a requirement for mods based on FS2. As mentioned, there is no requirement for completely original mods to use FS2 data; Total conversions that build complete games from scratch are possible (albeit a ****ton of work).

Say that I want to reimplement an original ship (with new code, new model, etc.) so that it is part of the game data instead of the old one. Do the IP rights prevent me to do it?

No, this is commonly referred to as modding. Do note that it is a monumentally bad idea to directly mess with the retail files; they should be considered read-only for all intents and purposes. This is because there are mods out there (like the MediaVPs) that require and expect the retail data to be unaltered; using them with altered assets may produce hard to debug errors.

Generally speaking, do the IP rights prevent to completely reimplement the game data so that the new one is open source?

Yes. If we were to remake the entirety of FS2, we would be violating the copyright of the rights holders. Right now, because we're just enhancing the original game and encourage people to buy FS2 legitimately via GOG, everyone's happy. Interplay gets money, we don't get takedown notices. If we were to distribute a version of FS2 without Interplays' approval, that would probably change.

[karajorma]

But will the FS2 game data be always a requirement for every work done by this community?

No; there are "total conversions" that discard the FreeSpace universe in favour of modding-team-created game data, which can be (and are) distributed completely free.

Quoted cause we should have pointed this out a lot earlier. The second I started reading this thread I saw Joif's question coming a mile off. I'm kinda surprised everyone waited until he actually asked it.


Basically the game engine (i.e the source code) is freely available. This means that anyone who wants to use it to make a new game can do so. We've got a few examples of that already (Diaspora, The Babylon Project, Wing Commander Saga) and more on the way (Stand alone games based on Star Wars, Tachyon, etc are on the way).

The resources needed to run FS2 however are still copyrighted and therefore can't be freely distributed. Nor can we make new versions of them and replace the originals, thereby making the game unnecessary.

[headdie]

But will the FS2 game data be always a requirement for every work done by this community?

No; there are "total conversions" that discard the FreeSpace universe in favour of modding-team-created game data, which can be (and are) distributed completely free.

Quoted cause we should have pointed this out a lot earlier. The second I started reading this thread I saw Joif's question coming a mile off. I'm kinda surprised everyone waited until he actually asked it.


Basically the game engine (i.e the source code) is freely available. This means that anyone who wants to use it to make a new game can do so. We've got a few examples of that already (Diaspora, The Babylon Project, Wing Commander Saga) and more on the way (Stand alone games based on Star Wars, Tachyon, etc are on the way).

The resources needed to run FS2 however are still copyrighted and therefore can't be freely distributed. Nor can we make new versions of them and replace the originals, thereby making the game unnecessary.

To add a little more detail.

At the point where Volition was acquired by THQ the rights to the FreeSpace franchise were split between Volition and Interplay and presumably a deal could not be reached for publishing a third game between Volition, Interplay and THQ.

In response to this Volition released the source code to the game engine which is the code which takes all the elements provided to it such as media, player inputs, etc and makes it all work as a game.

The rights to the Intellectual Property of the franchise however were, until recently, split so they couldn't do the same for that which means everything relating to the story, missions, the media such as visual assets, sounds, etc remain the property of Interplay.

this means
we can update the engine at will so long as no profit is made
we can distribute the engine in the form of executable files so long as no profit is made
we can upgrade media assets so long as no attempt is made to bypass the IP rights
we can create our own FS based stories, missions and campaigns so long as no profit is made
we can create new assets for FS based stories, missions and campaigns
we can create our own IP and assets relating to that so long as no attempt is made to profit from that

we cant distribute FS2 without consent from Interplay or attempt to bypass their rights as the IP holder.

[Joif]

I'm not an expert of this matter so forgive my point of view if it's wrong.

In total convertions, such as Diaspora or TBP, there is the reproduction of stories and settings from Sci-Fi novels/shows. I'm sure that there are IP rights or copyrights for everything in them. But it seems to me that there are no problems at all to make "fan-arts" from them.
So why it should be different with the FS universe? If I completely rewrite the story, I completely rewrite the missions, the ships, etc, so that I have a new game data set, but almost similar to the original one to be considered a non-commercial-alternative, what could be wrong and illegal in it?

As long as the work has codes, models and media contents rewritten from scratch and it is for non commercial use, I think it can replace the original game data without limitations. With all the advantages to be open-source.
In this way how can it violate IP rights?

[headdie]

yes projects such as TBP, Diaspora, WCS and other projects based on other IPs do exist at the whim of the rights holders but so far no real fallout beyond a spat with Moddb

the actual story falls under the IP rights and could be said to be the core of those rights so cant be distributed.  Producing a "similar" story can be seen as attempting to circumvent the IP.

missions and campaigns derived from the FS story have a little leeway as they can only be used with Freespace 2, which, presumably, was purchased legitimately.