[Nakura]

I believe that Europe still has a great many obstacles to overcome, before most European states can be considered truly free and open societies. The problem with many European countries (except for perhaps Switzerland) is that they have tried to create a free society on the framework of aristocracy, monarchy and tyranny. So much has changed on the surface in Europe, but nothing has changed deep down. While holding free and fair elections is certainly a step in the right direction, it doesn't make most European countries free societies. In order to be a free society, you need not only have a democratically elected government, but you must also change the hearts and minds of the people.

I believe that much of Europe is still stuck in the feudal era and living under serfdom. So many Europeans are more than happy to have the government and political class make their decisions for them and even give up their freedoms. Many Europeans simply do not hold these truths to be self-evident and are instead content with the illusion of freedom. Yet these same Europeans, who arrest people for expressing "unpopular" opinions, crackdown on political demonstrators, prevent their citizens from bearing arms, discriminate against religious groups and ban entire political parties, insist that they are somehow "more civilized" than the first republic [America].

Do you believe that many European countries need to make serious reforms? How can Americans (either as a state or as a people) help guide Europeans to freedom? And why do so many Europeans support handing over a great deal of control (including their civil liberties) over to the political class?


Note: Yes, I do realize that some Europeans, such as Nigel Farage and Daniel Hannan, are staunch supporters of freedom and justice. However they appear to be in the minority at the moment, even if their movements are growing in popularity.

[Flipside]

You.... haven't been to Europe, have you?

[haloboy100]

You fail to realize that America is exactly the same way.

Except they like to pretend that their voices matter instead of simply denying that they don't.

[Phantom Hoover]

ITT: "europe isn't free because its people don't live by the arrogant individualism i confuse for liberty"

[Lorric]

Nakura, what are you trying to do? You keep messing with your OP and topic title.

[Flipside]

The thing is that a lot of the problems faced by Eurozone countries are people getting angry over practices that they consider unhealthy for Capitalism, such as Lobbying, Banks paying for their own credit ratings and Tax Evasion by large companies. These are problems that also exist in the US, and quite often started there.

Liberty and Freedom are great things, but people are worried that a Corporate-centric form of Capitalism will be exported alongside the American version of it, which makes it particularly unsavoury for more left-wing oriented countries.

[Nakura]

You fail to realize that America is exactly the same way.

Except they like to pretend that their voices matter instead of simply denying that they don't.

Oh there absolutely is an authoritarian movement in the United States as well, I'm not denying that. The difference is that most Americans opposed to serfdom, whereas most Europeans are generally okay with it. It is quite shocking just how many of these supposedly 'tolerant' people are more than happy to have people they don't like arrested for voicing opinions they don't like. Take for instance the thread on freedom of speech in Australia on this very forum.

Look at how leaders of the French National Front are being arrested (and convicted) for so-called "hate speech," or how Germany is trying to ban the National Democratic Party (and has succeeded in banning various other "far-right" parties), or how the United Kingdom and the BeNeLux countries are cracking down on political demonstrations (such as the English Defence League), or how France and Switzerland have passed laws that discriminate against Muslims. The list goes on almost indefinitely.

[Flipside]

Actually, the EDL are allowed to demonstrate and hold rallies as long as they follow the same rules as everyone else. Look at the Orange marches in Glasgow or Ireland if you want a better demonstration of what is or is not allowed in the UK. The Orange marches themselves are highly charged events in Northern Ireland, they take Nationalists right through towns that were once part of Eire in a show of defiance, it is allowed to go ahead, but with heavy policing. It's kind of like standing on the Alamo and shouting 'It's ours suckers!' to passing Mexicans.

When the EDL proposed to do a 'sponsored walk' that just happened to go past a controversial mosque, their error was in trying to hide an obvious protest march behind a different label, that was their mistake, not their views on the matter, their approach to it.

[An4ximandros]

What is going on here? Some troll thread? Where are your sources, man?

[Apollo]

I agree that hate speech laws are a bad idea (except for banning explicit threats), but serfdom? I mean, there's a difference between relatively authoritarian left-wingers and peasants who are legally bound to the land and have no rights.

EDIT: Also, guiding European democracies (because they are democracies) towards a somewhat freer system is not America's role, and that attitude is one of the reasons many Europeans don't take us seriously. Anyway, I doubt there's much we could do in that area.

[Flipside]

There's also a big question of cultural differences here, in the US groups like the WBC are held up as examples of how America tolerates Speech, however, the culture in most European countries is far more along the lines of 'deal with the plank in your own eye first' with regards to groups like that. We're big fans of speaking our minds, but not big fans of hatred, we've had hundreds of years of that back and forth in Europe and now we really don't want all that trouble over again.

[MP-Ryan]

You guys need to quit indulging Nakura's neo-con fantasies.

I *might* consider actually debating Nakura on this issue if he comes up with some credibly-sourced examples and tones down the rhetoric, but past behaviour is the best predictor of future, so I'm pretty confident that isn't happening. If he doesn't credibly source his claims, ignore them - the trolling is getting ridiculous.  The original post is nothing but conspiracy-inspired American exceptionalist bull****, with a heaping portion of willful ignorance and patronizing attitude thrown in for good measure.  Oh, and FRRRRRRREEEEEEEEEEEEDDDDDDDOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM!

[An4ximandros]

This is all I see in this thread in a nutshell.

[Lorric]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlIm-riMN6Q#t=1m36s

[StarSlayer]

Serfdom...




Seriously you are making us look like knuckle dragging neo-barbs who've never seen the inside of a textbook.  Stop it.

[Apollo]

There's also a big question of cultural differences here, in the US groups like the WBC are held up as examples of how America tolerates Speech, however, the culture in most European countries is far more along the lines of 'deal with the plank in your own eye first' with regards to groups like that. We're big fans of speaking our minds, but not big fans of hatred, we've had hundreds of years of that back and forth in Europe and now we really don't want all that trouble over again.

Yeah, but the issue is banning stuff like that probably won't get rid of the problem (hatred will always be around), it tramples on people's rights (racism should not be a crime), and it could potentially be used to disallow unpopular political opinions (other than the obvious far-right racist bull****).

There are plenty of groups I strongly dislike for being racist, sexist, homophobic etc., but since hateful speech in and of itself causes no physical damage to anybody it's hard to justify banning it.

On the other hand, there are plenty of legitimate democracies with hate speech laws and they are in no way feudal societies.

[yuezhi]

X_X

[Flipside]

I think the way Europe looks at it is that the Speech itself does not harm, but that Speech will reach the ears of people who will. Saying 'I hate [insert race/sexuality etc here]', whilst regressive, racist and disgusting isn't a physically hurtful thing, I'll agree. However, when a group of people get together saying 'I hate [insert race/sexuality etc here] you will always get members of that group who are prepared to do more than just say it. We had a lot of trouble with that some decades ago.

America had its own phase of 'cleansing', and that is still a sore point on both sides, but Europe had it far worse over its existence, which is why we are somewhat touchy about it now. The reason much of Europe comes across as 'subdued' is because there is hundreds of years of tension under the surface, places like Greece and Turkey have had a long, difficult road to rid themselves of distrust of each other, and we've seen what happens when hatred and distrust run amok.

Now, you may, possibly accurately, claim that this is a case of shooting the messenger, as it were, but there are very definite reasons why at least parts Europe are not tolerant of racial/sexual hatred.

[NGTM-1R]

Since people brought up the WBC, it should be mentioned actually one of their favorite tactics is threatening to sue people regardless of grounds, to silence them. Since even the least-effective legal defense or determining if one is even necessary and filing a motion to dismiss when it is not is actually very expensive, most people have little choice but to back down.

By making all matters of harmful speech criminal matters, despicable people who attempt to use the legal system as cannon fodder in their wars on their critics are themselves subject to criminal prosecution. Or putting it another way, rather than allowing the profit motive to infect European civil law in a way that has proven to produce ugly circus trials and huge grey areas in which the threat of a lawsuit and the cost of defense is far greater than the cost of settling or any possible restitution gained at trial, they've made the subject a criminal matter so it's handled by people with fixed salaries who aren't paid by the win. It's actually not a terrible solution.

[The E]

I believe that Europe still has a great many obstacles to overcome, before most European states can be considered truly free and open societies. The problem with many European countries (except for perhaps Switzerland) is that they have tried to create a free society on the framework of aristocracy, monarchy and tyranny. So much has changed on the surface in Europe, but nothing has changed deep down.

Why single out the Swiss? They're as restrictive as any other european government you could care to mention.

While holding free and fair elections is certainly a step in the right direction, it doesn't make most European countries free societies. In order to be a free society, you need not only have a democratically elected government, but you must also change the hearts and minds of the people.

Lack of citations, and actual experience with actual Europeans, is obvious. Please try again.

I believe that much of Europe is still stuck in the feudal era and living under serfdom. So many Europeans are more than happy to have the government and political class make their decisions for them and even give up their freedoms.

It is true, Europe in general hasn't got the american tradition of extreme skepticism towards the central government that you are so proud of. However, that doesn't mean that the american way is th only or even the best way of running a country.

[/quote] Many Europeans simply do not hold these truths to be self-evident and are instead content with the illusion of freedom.[/quote]

Which truths? Why do you call it an "Illusion"? If you could provide a concrete example in which this supposed lack of freedom impacts our daily lives negatively, it would be much appreciated.

Yet these same Europeans, who arrest people for expressing "unpopular" opinions, crackdown on political demonstrators, prevent their citizens from bearing arms, discriminate against religious groups and ban entire political parties, insist that they are somehow "more civilized" than the first republic [America].

See above. Please show how this is actually a bad thing.

Do you believe that many European countries need to make serious reforms? How can Americans (either as a state or as a people) help guide Europeans to freedom? And why do so many Europeans support handing over a great deal of control (including their civil liberties) over to the political class?

Yeah, american "guidance" to create "free society" is such a great thing. Tell me, how did that work out for the countries you guys invaded in recent years?

Oh there absolutely is an authoritarian movement in the United States as well, I'm not denying that. The difference is that most Americans opposed to serfdom, whereas most Europeans are generally okay with it. It is quite shocking just how many of these supposedly 'tolerant' people are more than happy to have people they don't like arrested for voicing opinions they don't like. Take for instance the thread on freedom of speech in Australia on this very forum.

AAAhahaahahahahaaa omg I can't stop laughing

So you guys are "opposed to serfdom" now? You, of all people, claim to be fundamentally in support of freedom? You americans, you crack me up.
Seriously, where was this "opposition to serfdom" when corporations took over the political discourse? Where is this "opposition to serfdom" when religious extremists manage to change laws according to their particular brand of stupid? Where is the "opposition to serfdom" in the face of things like the PATRIOT Act, SOPA, CISPA, PRISM? I see a few protesters, but it seems that your actual politics differ from your ideals. Clean up your own act before trying to tell us what to do, thank you very much.

Look at how leaders of the French National Front are being arrested (and convicted) for so-called "hate speech," or how Germany is trying to ban the National Democratic Party (and has succeeded in banning various other "far-right" parties), or how the United Kingdom and the BeNeLux countries are cracking down on political demonstrations (such as the English Defence League), or how France and Switzerland have passed laws that discriminate against Muslims. The list goes on almost indefinitely.

So now Switzerland is no longer the shining beacon of FREEDOM? Who'd've thought.
Now, one thing you should consider. In America, a hundred years is a long time, whereas over here, a hundred miles are a long distance. There are historical reasons why Germany isn't especially tolerant with regards to political movements that have the destruction of our free democratic society at their core. We've been burned by those once, and we're pretty sure we don't want it to happen again.

You would be well advised to try to understand the context in which our political systems operate. The american way, at least as it was intended, isn't any better or worse; You trying to get us to follow your ideas (several of which are considered to be absolutely insane around here) is stupidly ignorant of historical and cultural differences.

Finally, Nakura: You really should try to support your arguments next time with some actual evidence. Right now, you're just trolling, and although you're one of the more entertaining trolls we've had around here, you're still a troll. Please be aware that there is no right to freedom of speech on this board.