Poll

What would you have done?

Strongly support the Việt Minh.
1 (6.3%)
Slightly support the Việt Minh.
0 (0%)
Strongly support the French.
0 (0%)
Slightly support the French. (Real History)
0 (0%)
Oppose both the Việt Minh and the French.
0 (0%)
Support and arm both sides.
0 (0%)
Remain completely neutral.
2 (12.5%)
Other (state in reply)
4 (25%)
Nuke Hanoi, creating a giant radioactive Snuffleupagus that destroys the communists.
9 (56.3%)

Total Members Voted: 16

Author Topic: Vietnam War  (Read 4380 times)

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Offline Nakura

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In this discussion, you are the United States and have complete and total control of the United States government and military forces. The year is 1945, World War II has just ended and France is struggling to retake it's colonies in French Indochina. The world has become a polarized battleground with right-wing democratic capitalist forces led by the United States on one side and left-wing communistic forces led by the Soviet Union on the other. During this time the United States faces a great challenge in a region that was then considered to be "insignificant."

What decisions would you have made as the United States during the First Indochina War? Would you have supported the French? Would you have supported the Việt Minh? Why would you make the choices you would and how would you deal with potential problems that may arise from undertaking such policies?


Background
France has been involved in Indochina (Cambodia, Laos and Vietnam) since the late 18th century. In 1858 France invaded Vietnam and after four years of fighting, established a colony in Cochinchina (southern Vietnam). France followed up the invasion of Cochinchina with an invasion of Tonkin and Annam (northern Vietnam) in 1883 and by 1886 had effective control over the whole of modern day Vietnam. In 1867 Cambodia became a French protectorate at the request of the Cambodian king. In 1893 France invaded Siam and forced Siam to cede a large portion of it's territory (modern day Laos) to France.

After World War I a charismatic young man from Vietnam, Nguyễn Sinh Cung, looked to the United States with great admiration. Nguyễn Sinh Cung was so swept away by Woodrow Wilson's Fourteen Points and American ideas such as freedom and self-determination, that he bought a suit and traveled to Versailles in an attempt to meet his idol, Woodrow Wilson. Nguyễn Sinh Cung hoped to convince Woodrow Wilson to support Vietnamese independence and even cited the United States Declaration of Independence as an inspiration of his. Tragically for Nguyễn Sinh Cung, Woodrow Wilson was less than receptive to his pleas. Disheartened by his failure to convince his idol to support him, he lived in France for a few years and turned to communism. After turning to communism and helping found the French Communist Party, he changed his name to "Hồ Chí Minh," a name the world would not soon forget.

During World War II the French mainland quickly fell to the German war machine and it's colonial military forces were in poor condition. Taking advantage of France's weak colonial defenses, Japan invaded French Indochina. Hồ Chí Minh created the Việt Minh (League for the Independence of Vietnam) to combat both Japanese and French control over Vietnam. Throughout World War II, the Việt Minh provided intelligence information to the United States and rescued downed American and British pilots in Vietnam. The Việt Minh often worked alongside American OSS (Office of Strategic Services) operatives in their missions and the Vietnamese people had nothing but positive views of Americans based on this interaction.

After World War II, the Việt Minh declared Vietnam an independent state and had set up it's own government. Despite his negative experience with Woodrow Wilson, Hồ Chí Minh still had a very positive view of the United States; in contrast, he was distrustful of the Soviet Union and Joseph Stalin, as they had many disagreements in the past. Hồ Chí Minh's Vietnamese Declaration of Independence echoed that of the United States Declaration of Independence (you can read it here). During this time of independence, the Vietnamese had celebrations across the country in honor of the United States, with The Star-Spangled Banner being played across the country. During this time Hồ Chí Minh pleaded with Harry Truman and the United States to support Vietnamese independence. The Việt Minh offered to ally themselves with the United States, allow the United States to build military bases in Vietnam and offered America special trading privileges (including free trade agreements) with Vietnam.

Intent on taking back their former colonies, France invaded the fledgling Vietnamese state. The Việt Minh were strongly in control of the northern regions of Vietnam, but were relatively weak in the south, resulting in the French seizing control over the southern region. France's position was tenuous however, with much of the countryside loyal to Hồ Chí Minh, resulting in France only having "real" control over major cities, such as Saigon, Hue and Hanoi. French and Việt Minh forces clashed and there seemed to be no end in sight. This is where you come in, as leader of the United States, you have to make a choice: What do you do?



What did the United States do in real life?
The United States decided to back France's attempt to retake French Indochina. We publicly announced our "neutrality," but were secretly aiding the French and eventually ended up paying for 80% of France's war effort. Harry Truman and Dwight D. Eisenhower feared that if we didn't support France, then France would "fall" to communism and ally itself with the Soviet Union. In return for American support, the French promised they would join the European Defense Community. In addition, the United States feared that Hồ Chí Minh was a puppet of Joseph Stalin, though in reality Hồ Chí Minh held Joseph Stalin in contempt.

After nearly a decade of fighting, the French finally gave up and the Geneva Conference convened to discuss the fate of Vietnam. The Geneva Conference stated that Vietnam would be temporarily divided into two states, North Vietnam and South Vietnam, and that a nation-wide election would be held in two years to decide the future of a unified Vietnam. The United States fervently supported South Vietnam, sending a great deal of (primarily military) aid and protecting the South Vietnamese president, Ngô Đình Diệm. We also sent thousands of military advisers to South Vietnam to train the Army of the Republic of Vietnam. During this same time, Hồ Chí Minh turned to Communist China for support, feeling betrayed by the Americans. The two year election deadline went by, but no nationwide elections were held, because both the Americans and the Chinese were afraid of the possible outcome. Instead an election was held only in South Vietnam, in which there were allegations of electoral fraud.

Ngô Đình Diệm had several problems going for him, however. Ngô Đình Diệm was a socialist who wanted to nationalized South Vietnam's major industries, which went against America's free market ideals. Ngô Đình Diệm was also very authoritarian, violently suppressing civil liberties and allegedly rigging elections. Political opponents, both communist and non-communist alike, were rounded up into "reeducation camps" headed by his brother. Late into his presidency he began a campaign of genocide and oppression of Buddhists in South Vietnam. To make matters worse, Ngô Đình Diệm refused to be America's puppet and while more than happy to accept American help, he refused to give in to America's demands, especially American pressure to initiate democratic reforms and respect civil liberties. Ngô Đình Diệm wasn't a very popular figure in South Vietnam and the Viet Cong (National Liberation Front) was founded to overthrow his government. The United States eventually decided that Ngô Đình Diệm had to go, so they supported a coup d'état against him in 1963.

The coup d'état against Ngô Đình Diệm left Vietnam destabilized and a series of coup d'état, both successful and unsuccessful, occurred in the following months and years. Unable to keep a stable, let alone democratically elected, government in power, South Vietnam's government and military were severe having trouble staving off the Viet Cong. Meanwhile American presence in Vietnam continued to grow, with more and more American "advisers" being killed by Viet Cong forces. American "advisers" had begun to take on new roles beyond that of just advising; with many "advisers" being directly involved in combat.

In 1964 two American naval vessels, the USS Madox and the USS Turner Joy were reportedly attacked by the North Vietnamese. Congress and the American people were outraged by the Gulf of Tonkin incident and demanded retribution. This resulted in Congress passing the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution, granting the president the ability to conduct military operations in Vietnam. Lyndon B. Johnson didn't commit American troops to directly fighting the Viet Cong and North Vietnamese right away, but as the Viet Cong gained more power, he began sending in American and allied troops to defend South Vietnam. And I'm sure you know what happened after that...

 

Offline Apollo

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Quote
Nuke Hanoi, creating a giant radioactive snuffaluppagus that destroys the liberals and communists.
Does that include classical liberals

EDIT: Man this feels like I'm watching Fox News.
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Offline StarSlayer

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Offline The E

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I have to wonder, how many forums did you crosspost this to? Besides the 4 linked to, of course.
If I'm just aching this can't go on
I came from chasing dreams to feel alone
There must be changes, miss to feel strong
I really need lifе to touch me
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Offline NGTM-1R

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This thread is missing an option to ban Nakura, thus never having to deal with an overly simplistic and poorly considered but extraordinarily long-winded post again!
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A Feddie Story

 

Offline qazwsx

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Hey guys, have you seen my antenna?

http://imgur.com/a/4ykFf#0
<Achillion> I mean, it's not like he's shoving the brain-goo in a usb slot and praying to kurzweil to bring the singularity

<dsockwell> idk about you guys but the reason i follow God's law is so I can get my rocks off in the afterlife

 

Offline Apollo

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This thread is missing an option to ban Nakura, thus never having to deal with an overly simplistic and poorly considered but extraordinarily long-winded post again!
It'll happen if he keeps pissing off global mods.
Current Project - Eos: The Coward's Blade. Coming Soon (hopefully.)

 

Offline Lorric

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to

While the other three are under a different name, this one is under Nakura. And it seems he got banned from that place.

Nakura, why are you here?

 

Offline Nakura

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I have to wonder, how many forums did you crosspost this to? Besides the 4 linked to, of course.
Only four? I'm disappointed in your investigative skills. It was more like six, but I posted those a long time ago (six months now?). It's always interesting to hear new opinions on one of my favorite subjects (the Vietnam War). I also put a great deal of effort into researching the subject and later writing up this topic. It would be a shame for all of that hard work to go to waste. Now then, how about you try actually contributing to this thread?

 

Offline Luis Dias

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I would have raped Hitler in his youth so he would have been a wuss when older.

Wait, wrong thread.  :nervous:

 

Offline Nakura

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to

While the other three are under a different name, this one is under Nakura. And it seems he got banned from that place.

Nakura, why are you here?
It's a three week ban for trolling, it'll end on the 22nd of this month. Occasionally I troll for fun:
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1299465-Would-depopulating-the-Earth-be-such-a-bad-thing
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1309955-Why-is-Obama-seen-as-a-bad-president?p=21456673#post21456673
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1315857-I-m-actually-shcoked-just-imperialist-liberals-are?p=21628623#post21628623
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1299224-Should-Vilamovians-have-their-own-state-like-Israel
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1291197-Should-we-ban-pressure-cookers
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1285706-No-respite-has-been-offered-and-none-given
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1295514-Has-Barack-Obama-failed-to-stand-up-for-quot-persecuted-quot-Christians-in-the-Middle-East


But I've also started some of the best, longest-running and most intelligent discussions there. Rest assured, however, I have no intention of trolling here.

I'm here to discuss FreeSpace, of course. Unfortunately I do not own  computer at the moment, so I am instead participating in the general discussion forum. I have not been trolling, nor have I broken any rules, so why does it matter?

 

Offline BloodEagle

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*headdesk*

Monkey? Please?

I mean, he's just getting ridiculous, now.

 

Offline redsniper

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Yeah I don't think anyone would miss his intelligent discourse here. He's just annoying everyone.
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The future makes happy, if you make it yourself.
No war; think about happy things."   -WouterSmitssm

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Offline Nakura

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*headdesk*

Monkey? Please?

I mean, he's just getting ridiculous, now.

Ridiculous? Nobody can deny that this is a brilliant topic. Certainly this thread is more worthy of discussion, than say this. Though I do admit, I am uncomfortable with posting this topic so soon after the last one. I will make note of this for the future. Why are you so upset anyway?

 

Offline Lorric

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Occasionally I troll for fun

*snip*

Rest assured, however, I have no intention of trolling here.

I'm here to discuss FreeSpace, of course. Unfortunately I do not own  computer at the moment, so I am instead participating in the general discussion forum. I have not been trolling, nor have I broken any rules, so why does it matter?

That is a brave admission, but you need to be careful.

I don't understand properly myself why it's a problem, but it's not enough to just not break the rules. I don't know how to advise you properly, but I know you're heading down a path that will get you banned.

I think you just need to tone it down a bit and maybe branch out into the Freespace part of the site just to prove that that's why you came here and not just to post in general discussion with an agenda.

Honestly, your presence here doesn't bother me personally one bit. I'm not particularly interested in your subject matter myself, nor am I really in a position to debate it, so I just leave it alone for the most part. But you're clearly doing yourself no favours.

I wanted to know why you're here in the hope you would say something which would help you.

 
Seriously, read those threads. Nakura is a perfect poster boy for why you should ban ****-stirrers with no interest in the community sooner rather than later. He has made six of his hundred and fifteen posts outside of the off-topic boards; I have no idea if he's even played Freespace.

I also put a great deal of effort into researching the subject and later writing up this topic. It would be a shame for all of that hard work to go to waste. Now then, how about you try actually contributing to this thread?

How about you try actually contributing to this community rather than using it to stroke your ego? I'm sorry, mate, but all of that hard work was wasted the minute you decided to invest it into writing up a litany of walls of text designed to be dumped into gaming forums so you could curry a bit of attention from the rise you'd get from liberals. Please get a less toxic hobby, like graffiti or loitering.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2013, 12:31:48 pm by Phantom Hoover »
The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell.

 

Offline swashmebuckle

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Donny was a good bowler, and a good man. He was one of us. He was a man who loved the outdoors - and bowling, and as a surfer, he explored the beaches of Southern California, from La Jolla to Leo Carrillo and up to Pismo. He died, he died as so many young men of his generation before his time. In your wisdom, Lord, you took him, as you took so many bright flowering young men at Khe Sanh, at Langdok, at Hill 364. These young men gave their lives. And so would Donny. Donny, who loved bowling. And so, Theodore Donald Karabotsos, in accordance with what we think your dying wishes might well have been, we commit your final mortal remains to the bosom of the Pacific Ocean, which you loved so well. Good night, sweet prince.
:hammer:

 

Offline An4ximandros

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Voted Other, we lack an option to use Nakura as a sacrifice to The Great Snuffleupagus.

 

Offline pecenipicek

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report buttons exists there for a very damn good reason.
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Ho, ho, ho, to the bottle I go
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Rain may fall and wind may blow,
and many miles be still to go,
but under a tall tree I will lie!

The Apocalypse Project needs YOU! - recruiting info thread.

 

Offline Nakura

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Occasionally I troll for fun

*snip*

Rest assured, however, I have no intention of trolling here.

I'm here to discuss FreeSpace, of course. Unfortunately I do not own  computer at the moment, so I am instead participating in the general discussion forum. I have not been trolling, nor have I broken any rules, so why does it matter?

That is a brave admission, but you need to be careful.

I don't understand properly myself why it's a problem, but it's not enough to just not break the rules. I don't know how to advise you properly, but I know you're heading down a path that will get you banned.

I think you just need to tone it down a bit and maybe branch out into the Freespace part of the site just to prove that that's why you came here and not just to post in general discussion with an agenda.

Honestly, your presence here doesn't bother me personally one bit. I'm not particularly interested in your subject matter myself, nor am I really in a position to debate it, so I just leave it alone for the most part. But you're clearly doing yourself no favours.

I wanted to know why you're here in the hope you would say something which would help you.

Thanks for advice, I think you're right. In case you're wondering, I recently made a rather controversial statement that many European countries lack sufficient legal protections for freedom of speech and association, which upset a number of Europeans here, though that was not my intention.

This thread has nothing against liberals or anyone else, in fact, I defended a left-winger (Ho Chi Minh) in this thread.

Seriously, read those threads. Nakura is a perfect poster boy for why you should ban ****-stirrers with no interest in the community sooner rather than later. He has made six of his hundred and fifteen posts outside of the off-topic boards; I have no idea if he's even played Freespace.

I also put a great deal of effort into researching the subject and later writing up this topic. It would be a shame for all of that hard work to go to waste. Now then, how about you try actually contributing to this thread?

How about you try actually contributing to this community rather than using it to stroke your ego? I'm sorry, mate, but all of that hard work was wasted the minute you decided to invest it into writing up a litany of walls of text designed to be dumped into gaming forums so you could curry a bit of attention from the rise you'd get from liberals. Please get a less toxic hobby, like graffiti or loitering.

Stroke my ego? You're the one who is derailing this thread. I already said that I would make your concessions, and yet you continue to harass me?