[Nakura]

So, now you are against conscription even though you were idolizing it a few moments before?

The enemy of my enemy is my friend. It's a better system than that of most other countries, even if there are better alternatives out there.

For instance, an MMP voting system is preferable to FPTP, but instant-runoff is better than MMP. Therefore, I can praise MMP, while still advocating for another system.

[StarSlayer]

"I shoulder this burden so that other might not have to."  That is the quintessential quality of that makes the sacrifice of a volunteer soldier so valuable.  If you deprive society of freedom except those who serve in the military it turns into: "I shoulder this burden so I and a select group of people can vote."  Can you see where you have fundamentally eliminated the value of voluntary military service by turning it into a vehicle of self interest?

[StarSlayer]

It already is a vehicle for self-service, however. Many people who enlist in the military today only do it because they want healthcare or citizenship (for immigrants) or free college or a pension or they simply can't find another job.

I like how you just equated the military to "I can't do better so I guess I'll join the Corps"

I said that a lot of people who enlist do it for those reasons, rather than out of a sense of patriotism or duty to society. I didn't say "all," nor did I say "most," I said "many."

Okay so "most" of them are doing it for self interest because they can't do better.  Next time you're in a bar with members of the military I'm sure they'd love to discuss this with you.  However this presents a problem.  If most of them have enlisted not to protect freedom, how do we award the right to freedom and democracy?  I suppose we could only allocate those rights posthumously since really its the only way to be sure.

[NGTM-1R]

Why should someone make decisions for society if they aren't willing to defend that society?

Assumption: Only military service counts as defending that society.

Obvious problem: Military service in the modern era is dependent on myriad privately produced objects, which are made by people who are reliant on other privately produced objects to make those objects, many of whom are probably not even citizens of the country.

You have chosen a completely arbitrary line, and in being completely arbitrary I could choose any other line I wished and have an equally valid argument.

[Nakura]

"I shoulder this burden so that other might not have to."  That is the quintessential quality of that makes the sacrifice of a volunteer soldier so valuable.  If you deprive society of freedom except those who serve in the military it turns into: "I shoulder this burden so I and a select group of people can vote."  Can you see where you have fundamentally eliminated the value of voluntary military service by turning it into a vehicle of self interest?

And some may choose to do that, but where is the problem in that? There are people who do that today and there will always be people who do that, so long as you offer any sort of incentive for military service [even pay]. Unless we lived in a post-scarcity society [Star Trek? lol], which simply isn't possible. You can't get something for nothing, everything has price. People don't just decide to vote because they feel like it, especially when two years of military service is a prerequisite. They do it because they wish to make a difference in society, which is a self-less reason.

[The E]

Oh god I can't stop laughing

The only thing that distinguishes every person who served in the military from everyone who didn't is that they served in the military, where (at least in most branches of the american service) they learned how to follow orders above all else.

Truly, those are qualities you want in people deciding things.

You are assuming, without any basis in reality, that people in the military would always and without question make better leaders. That the hearts of the defenders of the state are so pure that no amount of self-serving power brokers could possibly lead your state to disaster.
The only thing you're doing is to preempt one of the failure states of democracy by skipping the democracy bits and going straight to oligarchy. Actually, come to think of it, you're basically going directly for something that is functionally indistinguishable from a theocracy.

Yeah, you must really love Freedom.

[StarSlayer]

I'll make one last pass at this. 

"Only people who are willing to die for it deserve freedom and democracy."

The value in self sacrifice for freedom comes from the fact that you are shouldering that burden for your entire society.  In a nation with a volunteer military and freedom and rights for all members of the society, that willingness is exemplary.  Now if you remove the freedom and rights of that society ransom them only members of the military then you have eliminated the quality that made that sacrifice so valuable.  Instead you have turned that service into payment for your personal freedom and rights.  In essence you've turned it into an act of self interest rather than selfless act.   The value of being willing to die for freedom has been made completely moot.


Take us into orbit Mr. Malmsteen. I've seen enough.

[EvidenceOfFault]

"I shoulder this burden so that other might not have to."  That is the quintessential quality of that makes the sacrifice of a volunteer soldier so valuable.  If you deprive society of freedom except those who serve in the military it turns into: "I shoulder this burden so I and a select group of people can vote."  Can you see where you have fundamentally eliminated the value of voluntary military service by turning it into a vehicle of self interest?

And some may choose to do that, but where is the problem in that? There are people who do that today and there will always be people who do that, so long as you offer any sort of incentive for military service [even pay]. Unless we lived in a post-scarcity society [Star Trek? lol], which simply isn't possible. You can't get something for nothing, everything has price. People don't just decide to vote because they feel like it, especially when two years of military service is a prerequisite. They do it because they wish to make a difference in society, which is a self-less reason.

Uh, the kind of society that runs on "those who don't work don't need to eat" neither needs, nor deserves to be protected. It's the kind of thing that happens to better societies when they break.

[redsniper]

I used to think kind of like this when I was 15, but then I grew up and now I think like an adult.

Free us from your threads.

[Lorric]

I used to think kind of like this when I was 15, but then I grew up and now I think like an adult.

Free us from your threads.

Maybe you can help him if you used to think this way? What changed?

[redsniper]

My ways of thinking changed because I had an open mind and willingness to admit I was wrong before, which I'm pretty sure our boy here lacks.

Hell, he's straight up said repeatedly that makes threads like this just to stir **** up. He trollin'. I seriously don't understand why we have to put up with this. I mean it seemed like just about everyone in the recent New Rules threadnaught was in favor of more proactive moderation rather than getting hung up on the "letter of the law" so to speak.

[Apollo]

So, now you are against conscription even though you were idolizing it a few moments before?

The enemy of my enemy is my friend. It's a better system than that of most other countries, even if there are better alternatives out there.

For instance, an MMP voting system is preferable to FPTP, but instant-runoff is better than MMP. Therefore, I can praise MMP, while still advocating for another system.

OK, I may have some issues with other European countries but conscription is definitely a greater violation of individual rights than hate speech laws. Forcing someone into a position where they could potentially die in an entirely unjust war does not uphold freedom.

Also, being in the military and fighting for freedom are not the same thing. The military mentality, at least in the US, is one of unquestioning or nearly unquestioning obedience. That is hardly beneficial for democracy.

I actually don't have any particular opinion on Switzerland though. I am not very familiar with that country.

EDIT: removed quotations because interpretations.

[Lorric]

My ways of thinking changed because I had an open mind and willingness to admit I was wrong before, which I'm pretty sure our boy here lacks.

Hell, he's straight up said repeatedly that makes threads like this just to stir **** up. He trollin'. I seriously don't understand why we have to put up with this. I mean it seemed like just about everyone in the recent New Rules threadnaught was in favor of more proactive moderation rather than getting hung up on the "letter of the law" so to speak.

I still think there might be a chance for a peaceful solution. He's nice when people aren't sticking him on the defensive. It must be hard to let go of things you believe in strongly.

He did also say he wouldn't troll this board.

[An4ximandros]

... I seriously don't understand why we have to put up with this. I mean it seemed like just about everyone in the recent New Rules threadnaught was in favor of more proactive moderation rather than getting hung up on the "letter of the law" so to speak.

It's like those new year resolutions you want to do, yet never get around to it.

[Hobbie]

My goodness, this thread is hilarious.

In other news, how about all them Swiss banks and whatnot? Laundering mob money and... being powerful and in movies and... okay I just wanted to say something on topic for some reason.

[redsniper]

Yeah except this is not a debate or reasonable discourse. It's just a few good posters throwing sound logic at a brick wall. And these threads are like the ONLY thing he posts. If I say I'm not a troll and then I act like a troll, I'm still a troll!

He's not even being subtle! Praising conscription as the last bastion of freedom and then turning around saying he doesn't support it. HLP deserves a better class of troll.

[Hobbie]

I wonder what happens when we inevitably get a thread like this about Freespace.

Something about how the Vasudans deserved to get their planet glassed because of the clearly superior Shivan way of life...

[Lorric]

Yeah except this is not a debate or reasonable discourse. It's just a few good posters throwing sound logic at a brick wall. And these threads are like the ONLY thing he posts. If I say I'm not a troll and then I act like a troll, I'm still a troll!

He's not even being subtle! Praising conscription as the last bastion of freedom and then turning around saying he doesn't support it. Jfc....

Maybe... I know what you and others are saying, but I wonder if someone just talked to him, it could solve things better than everyone getting riled up and wanting the hammer to drop.

I wonder what happens when we inevitably get a thread like this about Freespace.

Something about how the Vasudans deserved to get their planet glassed because of the clearly superior Shivan way of life...

 

[Nakura]

I'll make one last pass at this. 

"Only people who are willing to die for it deserve freedom and democracy."

The value in self sacrifice for freedom comes from the fact that you are shouldering that burden for your entire society.  In a nation with a volunteer military and freedom and rights for all members of the society, that willingness is exemplary.  Now if you remove the freedom and rights of that society ransom them only members of the military then you have eliminated the quality that made that sacrifice so valuable.  Instead you have turned that service into payment for your personal freedom and rights.  In essence you've turned it into an act of self interest rather than selfless act.   The value of being willing to die for freedom has been made completely moot.


Take us into orbit Mr. Malmsteen. I've seen enough.

The only "freedom" that non-veterans would lack is the lack to vote/hold office. And, of course, teach any lesson in civics. It's not as though they can't run a business or petition the government about their grievances or be discriminated against in any way.

Do you think that Austria, Denmark, Finland, Israel, Korea, Norway, Singapore, Taiwan, etc. discriminate against their citizens by not allowing them to vote until they serve?

[Nakura]

So, now you are against conscription even though you were idolizing it a few moments before?

The enemy of my enemy is my friend. It's a better system than that of most other countries, even if there are better alternatives out there.

For instance, an MMP voting system is preferable to FPTP, but instant-runoff is better than MMP. Therefore, I can praise MMP, while still advocating for another system.

OK, I may have some issues with other European countries but conscription is definitely a greater violation of individual rights than hate speech laws. Forcing someone into a position where they could potentially die in an entirely unjust war does not uphold freedom.

Also, being in the military and fighting for freedom are not the same thing. The military mentality, at least in the US, is one of unquestioning or nearly unquestioning obedience. That is hardly beneficial for democracy.

I actually don't have any particular opinion on Switzerland though. I am not very familiar with that country.

EDIT: removed quotations because interpretations.

Could you please elaborate on why you think conscription is a greater violation of individual liberty than "anti-hate speech" laws? All conscription does is ask that citizens perform their civic duty. How is it any different from, say, jury duty?

If you live in a democratic system, even a military-esque democratic system, then the decision to go to war was made with the approval of the people [or at least their democratically elected representatives]. If you don't agree with the war, then you have every right to vote against it, protest against it and help convince others to oppose the war. Those are your rights in a free and open society.