[MP-Ryan]

"You can't afford that."

OOPS.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-23633768

Normally I don't give a **** about celebrity issues in the media, but this was too funny.  Profiling people's ability to pay based on the colour of their skin is wrong.  Doing it to the African American female owner of a media powerhouse... epic fail.

[Lorric]

Urgh, not another jump-to-racism conclusion on here... this really needs stamping out, it's all too easy to play the race card because of things like this. There is no indication this has anything to do with racism.

[Scotty]

Urgh, not another jump-to-racism conclusion on here... this really needs stamping out, it's all too easy to play the race card because of things like this. There is no indication this has anything to do with racism.

Lorric.

Dear Lord, Lorric.

Are you seriously trying to say that this is all some dramatic ploy in order to deliberately play the race card.  Seriously.

I suggest you show your way out of the conversation before it explodes into flames, this time.

[Lorric]

Urgh, not another jump-to-racism conclusion on here... this really needs stamping out, it's all too easy to play the race card because of things like this. There is no indication this has anything to do with racism.

Lorric.

Dear Lord, Lorric.

Are you seriously trying to say that this is all some dramatic ploy in order to deliberately play the race card.  Seriously.

I suggest you show your way out of the conversation before it explodes into flames, this time.

No that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying people are really, really too quick to scream racism.

Oprah, I've seen her before, she gets everywhere, it's hard not to see her. And sometimes, she looks like a housewife. That's what I'm banking on for this stupidity, that she was just out there in regular person clothes and this salesperson did something stupid.

[MP-Ryan]

This might actually be a good opportunity for an educational lesson for Lorric, Scotty.

Here's a question Lorric:  What would lead a shop assistant in a luxury goods store, with no prior knowledge of the customer she's serving, to believe that customer could not afford a particular expensive item in that shop?  The only information available to the shop assistant is:
-The manner in which the customer dresses.
-Any statements the customer makes about the ability of the customer to afford certain items.
-The physical appearance of the customer.

That's why this is a racist incident.  I find it unlikely that the shop assistant would have made the same kind of statement to a Caucasian woman dressed in exactly the same manner, ESPECIALLY because high-end shop owners know that celebrities regularly dress in ordinary street clothes when they wish to remain quasi-anonymous.

[Lorric]

This might actually be a good opportunity for an educational lesson for Lorric, Scotty.

Here's a question Lorric:  What would lead a shop assistant in a luxury goods store, with no prior knowledge of the customer she's serving, to believe that customer could not afford a particular expensive item in that shop?  The only information available to the shop assistant is:
-The manner in which the customer dresses.
-Any statements the customer makes about the ability of the customer to afford certain items.
-The physical appearance of the customer.

That's why this is a racist incident.  I find it unlikely that the shop assistant would have made the same kind of statement to a Caucasian woman dressed in exactly the same manner.

Well, you can see my post above.

You're just making an assumption and it's not fair. How would you feel if the assumption was made about you? The salesperson was stupid.

[Scotty]

So, I'm legitimately not trying to play the angry mod, but I really have to ask.

Lorric, are you saying that "It wasn't racism because the salesperson was just stupid"?

My follow up question: why does the salesperson being stupid not make it racism?

[MP-Ryan]

Lorric, you really need to educate yourself on the nuances of systemic and implicit racism.

[Lorric]

So, I'm legitimately not trying to play the angry mod, but I really have to ask.

Lorric, are you saying that "It wasn't racism because the salesperson was just stupid"?

My follow up question: why does the salesperson being stupid not make it racism?

Please don't be angry with me. If we stay civil, there doesn't have to be a problem here. Let's just talk.

Now I'm not saying I know it wasn't racism. I'm saying we don't know it was.

It's been imagined that this was done out of racism. So let me let you imagine a new scenario. It says the bag was kept behind a screen. Maybe the salesperson had had to bring that bag out countless times and had grown tired of it, and didn't want to bring it out anymore unless they were sure someone was going to buy it.

And that's besides me saying it could have been assumed by Oprah's clothing that she couldn't afford it.

It's still wrong to judge by appearance under any circmstances, but not as wrong as racism, and this person doesn't deserve to have this thrown at them with such flimsy circumstances.

If white celebrity X had been turned away in the same way, I doubt it would have made the news.

[Phantom Hoover]

OK Scotty, Ryan: stop engaging with him. This is going exactly the same way every other Lorric thread does, and in lieu of him being actually held responsible for that it's up to you not to give him anything to misunderstand and argue with.

[The E]

Lorric, this is an issue of racism, there is no doubt about it. What we know or do not know about the clerk in question is irrelevant. Without some form of mild, institutionalized racism on her part, this would not have happened. The implicit assumption that someone who looks and dresses a certain way is not and can not be a customer is fundamentally a racist one.

Phantom Hoover: You are not a moderator. Do not try to act like one.

That being said, Lorric: Remember that there is a strict limit to our willingness and capacity to indulge you. Topics you should research before reentering this thread are casual and systemic racism.

[BloodEagle]

It should be pointed out that, according to TFA, the store / clerk have not disputed the events as described by Oprah.  They have claimed that (paraphrasing here) "Gee, the clerk's English isn't that great."

--

Lorric, I would very much like to hear an alternate theory that logically follows from a salesclerk refusing to sell an item.  Bonus points if you can make it fit the chain of events as described.

[Lorric]

It should be pointed out that, according to TFA, the store / clerk have not disputed the events as described by Oprah.  They have claimed that (paraphrasing here) "Gee, the clerk's English isn't that great."

--

Lorric, I would very much like to hear an alternate theory that logically follows from a salesclerk refusing to sell an item.  Bonus points if you can make it fit the chain of events as described.

It could be clothes, they could be tired of getting the bag out, they may have had nothing but window shoppers the whole day or more... we don't know why. It could be anything.

Lorric, this is an issue of racism, there is no doubt about it. What we know or do not know about the clerk in question is irrelevant. Without some form of mild, institutionalized racism on her part, this would not have happened. The implicit assumption that someone who looks and dresses a certain way is not and can not be a customer is fundamentally a racist one.

Phantom Hoover: You are not a moderator. Do not try to act like one.

That being said, Lorric: Remember that there is a strict limit to our willingness and capacity to indulge you. Topics you should research before reentering this thread are casual and systemic racism.

If it was someone white, how would that be racism? It could happen to someone white. Ever watched the film Pretty Woman? Same thing.

Look, I'm not saying it's impossible that this is racism, it's certainly possible.

Let me try and point out what my problem here is. The only fact we have here is what happened with the bag, that's it. We don't know why.

My problem is jumping to a conclusion of racism, when the facts are so sparse. Pronouncing someone guilty of racism before they've even had a chance to open their mouth and explain themselves.

[The E]

The facts of the case are this:

Ms Winfrey entered a shop, and checked out a bag. The clerk there told her that it would be "too expensive for her". Given that the clerk didn't recognize her, and thus only had her first impressions to go on (that of a dressed-down, African-American woman), there are only very few conclusions we can draw about her behaviour. One is that she definitely was guilty of classism, since she had no way of evaluating the affluence of the prospective customer, and so went with her first impressions.

Now, this is bad customer service no matter how you look at it. Whether or not a white woman in a similar situation would be treated differently is doubtful, if we're talking just about classism.

However, under the circumstances, we do have to add racism into the mix as well. This is arguably harder to substantiate. It would fit into the picture, however.

What you need to realize, Lorric, is that racism comes.in many forms, from the idiot in the street yelling at the Asians to the store clerk who refuses service to someone just based on how the customer looks.

This everyday racism is absolutely pervasive in our society. You will see it everywhere, if you look, but you, as a presumably white male, will never be a victim of it.

It does not surprise me that you have difficulty seeing this. We already discussed similar issues in the "Tropes vs Women" thread, where you were similarly unaware of the actual issue at play.

For your sake, please read up on the issue. I just know that, when you read this, you will feel bound to post a response. Please take your time with it. Do not once again post something right off the top of your head.

[BloodEagle]

It should be pointed out that, according to TFA, the store / clerk have not disputed the events as described by Oprah.  They have claimed that (paraphrasing here) "Gee, the clerk's English isn't that great."

--

Lorric, I would very much like to hear an alternate theory that logically follows from a salesclerk refusing to sell an item.  Bonus points if you can make it fit the chain of events as described.

It could be clothes, they could be tired of getting the bag out, they may have had nothing but window shoppers the whole day or more... we don't know why. It could be anything.

No points for you.

A person working in a high-end establishment wouldn't risk their job over such trivialities.

If it was someone white, how would that be racism? It could happen to someone white. Ever watched the film Pretty Woman? Same thing.

Look, I'm not saying it's impossible that this is racism, it's certainly possible.

Let me try and point out what my problem here is. The only fact we have here is what happened with the bag, that's it. We don't know why.

My problem is jumping to a conclusion of racism, when the facts are so sparse. Pronouncing someone guilty of racism before they've even had a chance to open their mouth and explain themselves.

#1a. Pretty Woman was a (pretty terrible) fictional film.  This is real life.  As much as art is supposed to mirror life, I don't think a film from 1990 qualifies in the year 2013.
#1b. There is a pretty big difference between being dressed in an outfit that makes you look like a prostitute and an outfit that makes you look like Jane Everywoman Please-Don't-Take-Photographs-Of-Me-Esq.
#1c. We are assuming that Oprah wore civvies (as opposed to celebbies, which would be even worse).  The article doesn't mention what she was wearing at all (and I don't feel like looking up something like this because I don't give a rats ass about celebrities as a general rule).

#2. We do know why, the clerk said the Oprah was too poor to afford the purse in question.  That the shop and clerk have actively not disputed Oprah's version of events is an admission that that is how it happened (even if it wasn't and even if there was more to it).


In general, I agree that people are too quick to jump to conclusions and allegations of racism (among other things).  This is not one of those cases.

But then, let me ask you this: Do you find it more or less probable that this was a racially motivated incident?  (Feel free to ponder on this for a while)

--

This everyday racism is absolutely pervasive in our society. You will see it everywhere, if you look, but you, as a presumably white male, will never be a victim of it.

Psh.  They're called scholarships, man. 

[Lorric]

No points for you.

A person working in a high-end establishment wouldn't risk their job over such trivialities.

This person clearly didn't consider such things. Even an overt racist thinking clearly wouldn't risk their job over such a triviality.

#1a. Pretty Woman was a (pretty terrible) fictional film.  This is real life.  As much as art is supposed to mirror life, I don't think a film from 1990 qualifies in the year 2013.
#1b. There is a pretty big difference between being dressed in an outfit that makes you look like a prostitute and an outfit that makes you look like Jane Everywoman Please-Don't-Take-Photographs-Of-Me-Esq.
#1c. We are assuming that Oprah wore civvies (as opposed to celebbies, which would be even worse).  The article doesn't mention what she was wearing at all (and I don't feel like looking up something like this because I don't give a rats ass about celebrities as a general rule).

#2. We do know why, the clerk said the Oprah was too poor to afford the purse in question.  That the shop and clerk have actively not disputed Oprah's version of events is an admission that that is how it happened (even if it wasn't and even if there was more to it).

In general, I agree that people are too quick to jump to conclusions and allegations of racism (among other things).  This is not one of those cases.

But then, let me ask you this: Do you find it more or less probable that this was a racially motivated incident?  (Feel free to ponder on this for a while)

1a. Yes I knew someone would pull the "it's not real" card. The question is is it believable. I think it is. And I think it does, 1990 is irrelevant in this case.

1b. Prostitute, eh? I don't think she looked like a prostitute, and I've seen celebs in similar sort of attire snapped on the street. I'll be putting the scene in question in at the end.

2. We don't know why the clerk reached that conclusion.

I don't know. That's my main point. I lack the information to make such a judgement, and it disturbs me that others have done.

Vid:

The facts of the case are this:

Ms Winfrey entered a shop, and checked out a bag. The clerk there told her that it would be "too expensive for her". Given that the clerk didn't recognize her, and thus only had her first impressions to go on (that of a dressed-down, African-American woman), there are only very few conclusions we can draw about her behaviour. One is that she definitely was guilty of classism, since she had no way of evaluating the affluence of the prospective customer, and so went with her first impressions.

Now, this is bad customer service no matter how you look at it. Whether or not a white woman in a similar situation would be treated differently is doubtful, if we're talking just about classism.

This I agree with.

However, under the circumstances, we do have to add racism into the mix as well. This is arguably harder to substantiate. It would fit into the picture, however.

And this I also agree with. It's the certainty that bothers me. I acknowledge the possibility, it is people just making the assumption I have the real problem with. The conclusion jump is the issue, not the idea that this could be racially motivated. Putting it on the table as a possibility is perfectly okay with me.

[TwentyPercentCooler]

It should be pointed out that, according to TFA, the store / clerk have not disputed the events as described by Oprah.  They have claimed that (paraphrasing here) "Gee, the clerk's English isn't that great."

--

Lorric, I would very much like to hear an alternate theory that logically follows from a salesclerk refusing to sell an item.  Bonus points if you can make it fit the chain of events as described.

It could be clothes, they could be tired of getting the bag out, they may have had nothing but window shoppers the whole day or more... we don't know why. It could be anything.

No points for you.

A person working in a high-end establishment wouldn't risk their job over such trivialities.

If it was someone white, how would that be racism? It could happen to someone white. Ever watched the film Pretty Woman? Same thing.

Look, I'm not saying it's impossible that this is racism, it's certainly possible.

Let me try and point out what my problem here is. The only fact we have here is what happened with the bag, that's it. We don't know why.

My problem is jumping to a conclusion of racism, when the facts are so sparse. Pronouncing someone guilty of racism before they've even had a chance to open their mouth and explain themselves.

#1a. Pretty Woman was a (pretty terrible) fictional film.  This is real life.  As much as art is supposed to mirror life, I don't think a film from 1990 qualifies in the year 2013.
#1b. There is a pretty big difference between being dressed in an outfit that makes you look like a prostitute and an outfit that makes you look like Jane Everywoman Please-Don't-Take-Photographs-Of-Me-Esq.
#1c. We are assuming that Oprah wore civvies (as opposed to celebbies, which would be even worse).  The article doesn't mention what she was wearing at all (and I don't feel like looking up something like this because I don't give a rats ass about celebrities as a general rule).

#2. We do know why, the clerk said the Oprah was too poor to afford the purse in question.  That the shop and clerk have actively not disputed Oprah's version of events is an admission that that is how it happened (even if it wasn't and even if there was more to it).


In general, I agree that people are too quick to jump to conclusions and allegations of racism (among other things).  This is not one of those cases.

But then, let me ask you this: Do you find it more or less probable that this was a racially motivated incident?  (Feel free to ponder on this for a while)

--

This everyday racism is absolutely pervasive in our society. You will see it everywhere, if you look, but you, as a presumably white male, will never be a victim of it.

Psh.  They're called scholarships, man. 

I disagree with the notion that people won't risk their jobs over this. Most people aren't paid enough or treated well enough to give a ****.

I'm a 26 year old guy. My entire wardrobe consists of jeans and t-shirts, I have an eyebrow and labret piercing, and my hair is a random neon color with frightening regularity. I work for myself, so I can get away with this. When I was looking for a new vehicle (before I'd decided to get a motorcycle), I went around to a few local BMW dealerships, because I was entertaining the idea of getting an E46 or E90 M3 and I wanted to see if any of them had one in their certified pre-owned stocks. At all three dealerships, not a single person that worked there would give me the time of day, nevermind the fact that I way paying in full with cash. Some of these people consider themselves gatekeepers of the "brand" and they look at anyone who doesn't fit with their image like pond scum, no matter what color they happen to be. Unless you can read minds, you can't know what motivates such action for certain. Arrogance, racism, laziness...all possibilities. The difference is that I actually don't care (if they don't want my business, **** 'em) and I don't go crying and whining to my lawyers and the media, because I don't have a massively overdeveloped persecution complex and/or a sandy vagina.

[Apollo]

Yeah, unless the article got a bunch of things wrong this looks like racism. The clerk knew nothing about her (I hope), and thus any judgement she made would likely be based on Oprah's appearance--including her race. Her clothing may have been a factor if it made her look poor or middle-class*, but either way there's an excellent chance that her race influenced the clerk's thinking.

Now, I agree that people often try to make everything about race. I will usually try to find an alternative explanation. But the sheer arrogance of this speaks for itself. In particular, the clerk's condescending attitude reeks of racism.

Unless her English is just so horrible that it made proper communication impossible, but I somehow doubt that.

*Not sure because I can't watch the video without irritating people in the background, and it may have said something about that.

[Lorric]

The video really doesn't offer anything you can't get in the article.

[AtomicClucker]

I just think this is another case of "putting foot in mouth," bad part is doing this to a media mogul like Oprah.

Watch kabooms ensue.