[Flak]

Good riddance. What makes you think that Christianity isn't dying in the United States?

Hell yes of course, if you are not a Christian, you may or may not notice it, it is not that clear from some point of view. If you are one however, unless you are unaware of the situation or a maybe little dumb, it is pretty obvious. However, I am more concerned with the internal damage inside the church, rather than Christianity losing followers.

I just hope the emerging non-religious majority populations will manage to be less dickish to minority groups than the religious ones they replace. It will be interesting to see.

Or perhaps the non-religious majority will simply be dickish to the religious minority?

Except Muslims of course, since criticizing Islam would be "racist." Yet criticizing Christianity and Judaism is perfectly acceptable.

I am not sure why regardless of the group, people like to oppress the minority group. If they do, even the so called "Christians" sometimes, then they are not so different.

[Mongoose]

I just hope the emerging non-religious majority populations will manage to be less dickish to minority groups than the religious ones they replace. It will be interesting to see.

There are certainly enough dicks in the comments of that article.

[The E]

Except Muslims of course, since criticizing Islam would be "racist." Yet criticizing Christianity and Judaism is perfectly acceptable.

The thread will only go downhill if we allow it to go downhill. If everyone remains civilized and respectful, I see no reason we can't have a legitimate discussion.

Part of being civilized and having a good discussion is to keep myths and prejudice out of it. That also includes not trying to perpetuate the myth that christianity is somehow a persecuted religion in the US, given that flying while brown during Ramadan is not exactly safe, and given that at least the New York police habitually puts Mosques under covert surveillance.

One can criticize any religion for what it teaches. But it would be wise to remember that, for example, a mainstream christian in the US and a mainstream christian in Europe have vastly different outlooks on what the religion is, and so take care to be specific when criticizing. Saying "Churches who spread faith healing is bad for the community, as they tend to forego vaccinations and thus heighten the risk for everyone around them to catch diseases" is valid. Saying "Christianity teaches faith healing, and thus is bad for the community" is not. Are we clear on that?

[NGTM-1R]

Catholics tend to attend more frequently per month, but far, far fewer people associate themselves with the Catholic church in the UK. 9%, or 1/12 people in the UK, compared to the 37.5%, over 4 times higher which is the European average (Source : Wikipedia - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_by_country)

Okay, so you could have just said "you're right, more Catholics do attend services!"

Associating themselves with the church is, perforce, not a measure of their interest in the church, as evidenced by the fact their attendance rate is rather poor.

Now explain to me again how the statement that the Catholic Church has not established a particularly strong hold in the UK is 'not accurate'. Whilst the fact that fewer CofE members attend is a contributing factor, it wasn't the factor I was referring to, it was the low level of Catholicism in the UK in the first place.

Again, stating affiliation to the church is not an endorsement of the church's stated ideals or goals. (c.f. the US Catholic Bishops opposing contraception that most who would identify as Roman Catholic were for.) The Church of England has a weaker grip on its own country than Catholicism does, which was the point.

Church-going regularly on the other hand, by its nature, usually indicates closer adherence to the goals and ideology of the church in question. If only because you're subjected to a good deal of talking about them on regular basis and wouldn't if you found it that offensive.

(I could elaborate that this because the Church of England has to some extent become a social club, as its moral stances are, for better or worse, far less clearly defined or non-negotiable compared to Catholicism or many other sects of Protestantism; in effect it lacks something to stand for, and has for whatever reason neglected its ability to point to lesser-privileged brothers and sisters in faith who need help. I assume congregations of the Church of England probably remain in areas of India or Africa formerly a part of the Empire.)

[Flipside]

And, as is your normal modus operandi, you deliberately misinterpret the point I was trying to make purely for the sake of your own ego.

You really aren't worth the effort, and, quite frankly, I'd rather have as little communication with you as possible.

[The E]

NGTM1R: I am really not sure what kind of point you're making or trying to make here. From what you and Flip have posted, it seems that while Catholics are a minority group among the religious of the UK, those that do exist tend to be more active in their religious community (More church attendance and the like).

That does not impact the general statement Flip made about the Catholic church not having a particularly strong foothold in the slightest.

[Flipside]

Alright, let me put this down on the table so both those involved and the Admin can be aware of my stance on this...

I have no problem with NGTM1R getting involved in these threads, he has as much right as everyone else, however, after my experiences with him recently, I'd MUCH prefer it if he did not attempt to talk to me directly, and especially not attempt to flame-bait me directly.

I made a mistake when I joined here 10 years ago in assuming that everyone here, because they shared a common interest, was a nice person.

I've learned my lesson.

Id like to stay a member of the community if possible, but I can no longer treat all members equally after what happened. I know this makes matters slightly awkward for Moderators and I apologise for that, but that's just the way things have turned out.

Anyway, piece said, hopefully we can leave it at that.

[Luis Dias]

From my perspective, I was completely blown away when I first realised that foreigns would look at my country (in internet groups) and declare it absolute christian, almost fundamentalist. When these people got me the stats that they were looking at, I was also blown away. According to census, 98% of the Portuguese population *is* a christian. I couldn't reconcile it with my reality, where most of the people I met along my life were either really soft deists, agnostics, "wouldn't care-ists", full blown atheists and one or two christians. Didn't match.

Then I figured it out. Those 98% quoted in all international orgs, etc., is just the number of "christians" that the catholic church was accounting for. How they did this? Well, they just counted every single person who was baptized! No wonder the mismatch! Everyone I know is in fact baptized, but that's so hardly correlated to what they actually believe that's not even a joke.

So no, these news are not foreign nor news to me for a long time. The major reason why Catholicism took a real beating for the past 50 years is mostly due to its connections with the fascist regimes. In Portugal (and in many other EU countries) for example, the Chruch was high up there with Salazar and absoslutely joyfully cooperative. They maintained the propaganda status quo. Of course, when the revolution came, no one was too happy about the Chuch's role.

In Portugal's case (and I guess similar things happened in other countries ruled by fascists), the Church just quieted down and pretended history didn't exist, etc., all the religious people were just embarrassed by all the situation and neglected a lot their christian duty to proselityze. A curious social phenomena started to happen. Parents were religious while their sons were not, and there was no backlash whatsoever. Meanwhile, the revolution was made by the communists and socialists and they mostly managed to arrange a proper secularized government, and all public discussion about religion just disappeared. Add to that the growing education stats and all the things already outlined here, it is no wonder that the churches are becoming empty. They are even having trouble forming priests to do the jobs.

[Flipside]

The interesting thing about religion in Urban areas is that I can't help thinking there is a correlation between religious friction and religious devotion. For example, in Ireland, where there is friction between Catholics and Protestants, religion is a big thing, with each side eager to show their dedication to their chosen denomination. The situation was similar with Islam, oddly enough, I know several Muslims who went from Smoking, Drinking and Partying to abstainers who regularly attended the Mosque, and the catalyst for that was a growing distrust of Muslims.

[karajorma]

And NGTM-1R is also taking a break from Gen Discuss. Looks like it's a good day for banning people today.

He can come back when he's proved he's capable of having a discussion without being condescending about it.

[MP-Ryan]

The interesting thing about religion in Urban areas is that I can't help thinking there is a correlation between religious friction and religious devotion. For example, in Ireland, where there is friction between Catholics and Protestants, religion is a big thing, with each side eager to show their dedication to their chosen denomination.

Ireland probably isn't a good example, since religion in Ireland (like football team affiliation) is merely a convenient shorthand for politics.

The mess in Northern Ireland in particular stopped being about religion a long, long time ago, despite the claims of the most vocal members of the political factions.  That's part of the reason the latest round of power-sharing has worked out so [comparatively] well - it gets to the root of the problem, rather than operating on the assumption that the problem is actually religious differences just because that's what the most vocal people say its about.

I still have quite a number of cousins in Northern Ireland (mostly Protestant), and it's always eye-opening hearing how bat**** crazy otherwise rational people become when you talk about politics and religion in a place where the two are indistinguishable.  One of my cousins told my parents (my mom's family is Irish Protestant, my Dad's is Irish Catholic) when they were visiting a few years ago that "I respect that its not an issue for you in Canada, but if one of my boys brought home a Catholic girl, I'd disown him and kick him out on the spot."  Of course, when you talk to him at length he doesn't have a real issue with the fact that people are Catholic; his issue is with the politics associated with Catholics in Northern Ireland.

I'd be careful using Ireland as a basis for any conjecture about religion generally - the place is completely unique in terms of mix of politics and religion and how that's played out over the last 800+ years.

[Flipside]

You have a valid point, there is a great deal more affecting the situation in Northern Ireland and religion does tend to sort of simply be the gloss over the top of it, possibly not the best choice of examples, but I do still think there is a link between the amount of overt religious activity and perception of that religion.

Unfortunately, the only comparison I can think of is probably not the best image to combine with a religious thread, which is the Gay Pride festival, where the more overt behaviour is designed to point out that these people exist and are not intending to go away.

[Flak]

Except Muslims of course, since criticizing Islam would be "racist." Yet criticizing Christianity and Judaism is perfectly acceptable.

The thread will only go downhill if we allow it to go downhill. If everyone remains civilized and respectful, I see no reason we can't have a legitimate discussion.

Part of being civilized and having a good discussion is to keep myths and prejudice out of it. That also includes not trying to perpetuate the myth that christianity is somehow a persecuted religion in the US, given that flying while brown during Ramadan is not exactly safe, and given that at least the New York police habitually puts Mosques under covert surveillance.

One can criticize any religion for what it teaches. But it would be wise to remember that, for example, a mainstream christian in the US and a mainstream christian in Europe have vastly different outlooks on what the religion is, and so take care to be specific when criticizing. Saying "Churches who spread faith healing is bad for the community, as they tend to forego vaccinations and thus heighten the risk for everyone around them to catch diseases" is valid. Saying "Christianity teaches faith healing, and thus is bad for the community" is not. Are we clear on that?

Couldn't have said it better myself. I just wish for no more of those kind stupidities, which unfortunately still happens a lot around here. Being a protestant also means I am a minority around this part, double points with my race. On the other hand, I have been living surrounded by muslims all my life, most of them aren't those terrorist types in people's stereotypes.

Lastly, may I add that a friend of mine, who works in a local university said that most of the people who studies Philosophy in the university 'end up' becoming atheist? Well, actually not, they were Atheists from the start, and their studies just confirmed their 'faith'.

[Mongoose]

I guess from my own perspective, as someone who is Catholic but is having some issues right now, what bums me out the most about declining church attendance in a lot of places is seeing so many of these beautiful old inner-city churches essentially being abandoned as different parishes are merged or shut down.  All else aside, organized religion has produced or funded countless spectacular works of art and architecture over the centuries--we're talking some of the most notable pieces of any given culture--and I think we'd be losing something very tangible and valuable if that were to eventually fade away.

[The E]

I guess from my own perspective, as someone who is Catholic but is having some issues right now, what bums me out the most about declining church attendance in a lot of places is seeing so many of these beautiful old inner-city churches essentially being abandoned as different parishes are merged or shut down.  All else aside, organized religion has produced or funded countless spectacular works of art and architecture over the centuries--we're talking some of the most notable pieces of any given culture--and I think we'd be losing something very tangible and valuable if that were to eventually fade away.

I'm a staunch atheist, and I 100% agree with this.

I make a point to visit any major religious site (Cathedral, monastery, whatever) when I'm near one, because I like to be absolutely blown away by the artistry.

[MP-Ryan]

I guess from my own perspective, as someone who is Catholic but is having some issues right now, what bums me out the most about declining church attendance in a lot of places is seeing so many of these beautiful old inner-city churches essentially being abandoned as different parishes are merged or shut down.  All else aside, organized religion has produced or funded countless spectacular works of art and architecture over the centuries--we're talking some of the most notable pieces of any given culture--and I think we'd be losing something very tangible and valuable if that were to eventually fade away.

I'm a staunch atheist, and I 100% agree with this.

I make a point to visit any major religious site (Cathedral, monastery, whatever) when I'm near one, because I like to be absolutely blown away by the artistry.

Ditto.  Drives my wife (who is Catholic in name if not practice) nuts, because whenever we plan trips to "old" places, churches are always near the top of my list of places I want to see.  It's why I support historical societies and governments buying out the old properties and seeing to their preservation.

On a tangent;  here in Canada, we tend to try to preserve historical sites that are even just a century old through historical societies or government ministries.  Imagine my shock when visiting the UK to not only see several-hundred-year-old castles crumbling down, but find out that a number of them are privately owned and operated.  Or a small chunk of Hadrian's wall in the middle of a hedgerow with no preserving measures around it to speak of.  I was somewhat less horrified when I discovered that I was in a part of the UK where a short drive in any direction would land me at a different castle, but still.  I guess when literally the whole countryside is built on a thousand years of history you don't get quite as worked up about it =)

[swashmebuckle]

It's always sad to see a great work fall into disuse/disrepair, but I wouldn't be too worried about religious artistic output fading from the world. Church attendance might be down, but the number of people interested in and capable of accessing and appreciating the work has gone way way up, and I'd argue that Westminster can be just as enriching to the life of an architecture lover as it is to a devout Anglican.

We might (thankfully) not have the sort of extreme and entrenched monocultural concentrations of wealth that enabled things like 100-year church construction projects, but because our base is so much broader and our means are so much greater, I would definitely say the best days of religious art are still ahead of us.

[Al-Rik]

http://freethinker.co.uk/2013/08/28/christianity-is-dying-in-england-and-in-france-catholic-priests-are-only-preaching-to-pensioners/

I'd like to discuss why this trend is happening all across Europe, not just in England and France, but not in the United States. Does it have to do with a lack of urbanization?

Both the US and Europe are pretty urbanized, so why it should be a lack of urbanization ?

In Europe the catholic church has a problem with a shirking basis.
Younger persons don't attend so often to church, and even leave the church as organisation because they don't participate the services at Sunday or Christian holy days.
That doesn't mean the Europeans are the Vanguard of Atheism and Reason.
Many Persons that left the church or claim to be a non-believer don't seem to bother to use homoeopathic Medicine and other esoteric "alternative" practices, like buying organic food that was fertilized by the moonrays hitting buried cattle horns full of ****.

And while the churches are getting more and more empty, schools and preschools which are organized by catholic or anthroposophic principles are very popular in the circles of the upper middle class.   

[AtomicClucker]

One big reason for the decline of religion in much of Western Europe can be attributed to better economics, urbanization, and rationalization among the general populace. However, I will cynically note it does nothing to change my opinion stupid and bias flows from simply breathing, taking a dump, and doing human things. I would argue that even with the decline of religion, it changes little of already projected trends of secularization and other outlets for spiritual endeavor that doesn't require tilting a hat to a pope or reading a best-seller penned by an irate biologist who trolls Muslims on twitter.

I just wonder how this will continue to affect minorities in Europe, especially the Muslim segment - how long it takes before secular laws begins to encroach on personal beliefs and liberties.

[Luis Dias]

I also do not think that the appreciation of christian art will ever be a problem.

No one really cares about the cult of Athena or the cult of Isis or whatever anymore, and we all know everyone loves the Parthenon, Ancient Greek and Ancient Egypt culture, art, architecture, philosophy, etc.,etc.

So don't worry too much on that front!