Author Topic: English Semantics  (Read 8150 times)

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you're confusing 'only when' with 'if'
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Offline Nuke

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you must consult the lightbulb's datasheet for its complete operational profile

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Offline SypheDMar

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This bull***** reminds me of high school. At least in my college, the professors can't get away with this because the student body can complain loud enough. Nobody takes high schoolers seriously though.

In this case, the decision that the school should make is to give everyone their points back or scrap the question. The department defending the test writer is outrageous.

*said bull**** never affected me directly.

  

Offline Androgeos Exeunt

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What's weird is that I didn't even notice the "all of the above" bit until Ghostavo pointed it out. :p

I didn't notice it either until he mentioned it and I went to do a cross-check with other online sources. I guess that when you're engrossed with the question that is given, you would think that the chosen option answers the question directly, in the sense of "Which statement(s) is/are correct? All of the above." as opposed to seeing "all of the above" in its original meaning, which is "All the different options given to answer the question are correct."


I may be wrong, but since when doesn't a light bulb give off light energy when there is no electric current passing through it? It has a cooldown I believe. I may be horribly wrong.
(yes I am aware that's not the case)
You can also predict it will give light quite extensively if you heat it enough through other means.

I'd lose quite a long time on this particular question. Not only trying to understand the question, but also trying to understand how much was the questioner trying to troll me, zero, a little, a lot, etc. Or, IOW, trying to understand how little the questioner really understands physics at all and how much I value my own pride over grades.

Uh, guys, at the risk of being turned inside out for stating the bleeding obvious or living up to my Custom Title, I'd like to point out that it's an elementary school question (Grade 6, to be exact). I don't think the examiner wrote that question expecting a 12-year-old to think so much about the various ways to illuminate a filament, or whether it still gives off light energy after the power supply generating the current that passes through it is shut off. :nervous:


Of course, I'm more bothered by the fact that they wrote 'light energy' on that there test than that their grammar sucks. :)

::EDIT::

@Title, technically this is an issue of syntax and not an issue of semantics.

What should it be then? Radiant energy? I got redirected to that when I tried searching "light energy" on Wikipedia. The national syllabus probably uses "light energy", so maybe that's why it was typewritten as such.

I would agree that this is an issue of syntax from a technical standpoint. However, the semantics issue was what caught my attention first.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2013, 10:44:50 pm by Androgeos Exeunt »
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Offline Herra Tohtori

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Statement A: False.

Statement B: True.

Statement C: True but problematic.

Statement D: False.


Now for the analysis:

Z is, apparently, the metal filament wire of the light bulb. The brightness of the bulb depends on two things: Surface area of the wire, and how hot it is (Stefan-Boltzmann law).

While the physical properties of the part Z are part of determining how bright the wire becomes, there is another, external factor on how hot it DOES become, and that's the current driven through the wire by the operating voltage of the bulb.

Obviously, the length, thickness, and material of the wire itself determine its resistance, but regardless that is not the only thing determining the "brightness" of the bulb. Since the current can be regulated by operating voltage, the bulb can be made dimmer or brighter regardless of the filament itself.

It could be argued that it determines the maximum potential brightness of the bulb because beyond certain temperature the filament disintegrates, but that's not really what statement A actually says.


Statement B is the simplest of the four and analyzing it is simplest. The only flaw is that the wire only needs high melting point if you want the bulb to work as a light source. But since that's usually the most common purpose for a light bulb as this, and I'm feeling generous, I'll take this for granted.


Statement C is troublesome because it is ambiguous. Electrical current is responsible for heating up the wire, true. And when the wire overheats, it stops working. But, it isn't always quite as simple as saying that the wire melts. It can also be vapourized, and this in fact happens slowly throughout the life cycle of a tungsten wire filament bulb, even though glass bulbs are typically filled with inert gas that slows down the vapourization of the metal. The ejected tungsten atoms accumulate on the inside of the glass bulb, which causes the typical darkening of light bulbs in use.


Statement D is unilaterally wrong, from basic physical perspective as well as linguistical.

The part Z does never "give off" energy of any kind. Much less "Light energy" which is not even a thing in the context of the school's interpretation of the statement.

First, to "give off" energy would mean that we could actually produce net energy gain by driving current through metal wire, which would act as a catalyst or something, and then the wire would magically produce energy. Obviously, this is not the case - the current requires a voltage, and the power of the radiation given by the wire is characterized by the voltage drop over the wire - or, depends on how much voltage is required to drive a current A through the wire, however you look at it it's an energy conversion process rather than the wire "giving off" energy.

Secondly, while light does have energy, what that actually is is energy of electromagnetic wave motion. Calling it "light energy" is bad use of scientific terminology, because fundamentally there's no difference between visible light, thermal radiation, microwave radiation and ultraviolet radiation.


The lamp's doing one thing - it heats up with electric current and produces a continuous spectrum of electromagnetic radiation based on its temperature. Most of the radiation is thermal radiation (longer wavelengths than visible light), part is visible light, and some parts are ultraviolet wavelengths. Fundamentally, all of these are same form of energy and it is profoundly misleading to separate them into "light energy", "heat energy", and... what, ultraviolet energy? Microwave energy? What nonsense.

Which leads us to the interpretation of the statement's wording. The question whether the "only" refers to "only when an electric current" or "light energy only" is something that really shouldn't even be asked, so we can probably agree that whichever was the writer's intention, the execution is lacking in clarity.

To me, it would be obvious that the "only" refers to the following part of the sentence.

As shown above, though, the statement has deeper problems than that.


If we assume that it should mean "only light energy", the statement could be construed as false because there's no such thing as "light energy", or true because all electromagnetic wave motion could be understood to be "light" depending on student interpretation.

In this case, the statement should actually be "It gives off only visible light when an electric current passes through it."

On the other hand the more natural assumption of "only when" would mean that the wire produces light only when electric current passes through it.

This is strictly speaking not true. Several counter-examples can be used to show this: Physically speaking, the wire will produce light when it's hot enough to do so. It can be heated with electric current going through it, or by lasers, or it could act as an antenna and driven to oscillate by suitable frequency of radio waves. Or, the simplest case - residual heat... The lamp will continue to glow, albeit for a short time, after current has been disconnected. In fact, in the case of bulb being operated with alternating current, this is the only reason why the bulb produces continuous light despite being driven by current that essentially turns on and off 50 times a second.


The writer of this exam question should be deeply ashamed regardless of their ability with English language.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2013, 04:16:06 am by Herra Tohtori »
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Offline The E

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I can't help but feel that you've overthought this to a ridiculous degree, jumping on linguistic nuances to disregard the intent of what was written in favour of a very literal interpretation of what was written.
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Offline qazwsx

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I can't help but feel that you've overthought this to a ridiculous degree, jumping on linguistic nuances to disregard the intent of what was written in favour of a very literal interpretation of what was written.
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Offline Herra Tohtori

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I just happen to think that even at lower educational levels, exam questions shouldn't have conceptual errors embedded in them.

What level of education is this anyway? It seems like, if the errors were corrected, the question would be suitable for elementary school level, I guess.
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Offline The E

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I just happen to think that even at lower educational levels, exam questions shouldn't have conceptual errors embedded in them.

But are there conceptual errors? None of the statements (No, not even D!) is actually wrong. They're not giving the complete picture, but the question is, do they have to?

If this was something given out for students just starting off with physics, wouldn't a slightly more accessible definition of certain things be more helpful in establishing things than starting off with the full, complete definition from the textbooks?

A statement like D, which you described as wrong on every level, is true enough for elementary school use, where getting kids to think about things in a certain way (like cause/effect relationships) is more important than giving the full picture.
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Offline Luis Dias

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I can't help but feel that you've overthought this to a ridiculous degree, jumping on linguistic nuances to disregard the intent of what was written in favour of a very literal interpretation of what was written.

Precisely my thoughts, although I do appreciate his take on "light energy". That bit also made me laugh a bit when I first read it, although I read it differently than Herra. I read it as saying "It gives light... which we also know wink wink it's energy.... so I'll call it "light energy"", which is cringeworthy material at any rate. Anyways by "giving light" it is necessarily giving "light energy", if I take their wording in the most charitable way... obviously Herra's wording should be followed ("It gives off only visible light when an electric current passes through it.").

Slow day at HLP I guess :D

 

Offline Herra Tohtori

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I just happen to think that even at lower educational levels, exam questions shouldn't have conceptual errors embedded in them.

But are there conceptual errors? None of the statements (No, not even D!) is actually wrong. They're not giving the complete picture, but the question is, do they have to?

There are a few things that I see as misleading at best, and conceptual errors at worst.

Conceptual problems included here:

1. Wire makes light (statement A)

2. "Too much" electric current makes wire melt (statements B&C)

3. Electric current through a wire produces light and other things (statement D, school's interpretation)

4. Electric current through a wire produces light only if current is going through it (statement D, correct English interpretation)


The problem here is that these might not be "wrong" per se, however they are an example of leaping straight from visible cause to visible effect, and in the process leaping over a few quite important things.

Here's an equivalent explanation for rain:

-the Sun shines
-water evaporates from oceans and lakes
-water is transported in atmosphere by wind currents
-when air temperature drops low enough, water condenses into droplets and forms clouds
-if droplets become big enough, water falls all the way to ground
-it rains


So, while saying that it rains because the Sun shines is correct, not explaining the steps between is rather questionable.


With missing information it's common for children to form erroneous concepts of what's happening.

For example, I could easily see a child thinking that electricity goes into lamp and comes out as light, which will later be a problem when they go through DC circuit and see that the same current flows through all the lamps in series.

It could also make them think that the light produced by electricity makes the wire hot.

Another conceptual error that could come from this is that "light" and "heat" coming off the wire are somehow different, when in fact they are the same thing (only differentiated by our perception), and when they start dealing with the concept of "heat" in thermophysics, they'll find that it's completely different than the "heat" produced by a lamp...


The missing steps here are that the electricity itself doesn't cause the light, but it heats the wire (which can cause it to melt if it becomes too hot) and the hot wire then radiates. At this level the students don't need to know about Stefan-Boltzmann law or how the temperature affects spectral distribution of radiation, but I do think it's a bad idea to make it look like the electric current "causes" light, when it doesn't. The light is a secondary effect of the wire heating up.

Quote
If this was something given out for students just starting off with physics, wouldn't a slightly more accessible definition of certain things be more helpful in establishing things than starting off with the full, complete definition from the textbooks?

A statement like D, which you described as wrong on every level, is true enough for elementary school use, where getting kids to think about things in a certain way (like cause/effect relationships) is more important than giving the full picture.

Yes, but cause/effect relationships need to make sense. I'll agree that this situation is not quite as bad as the one I gave with the rain being caused by sun; however it's still too prone for misconceptions for my tastes.
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Offline deathfun

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In the end, what we pull away from this is that theoretical education is less useful than practical education

How does knowing what the filament of the bulb does help you in being able to replace the bulb?
"No"

 

Offline Nuke

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... this is the only reason why the bulb produces continuous light despite being driven by current that essentially turns on and off 50 times a second.

this is incorrect unless you are getting your power from a shoddy inverter, and even then its wrong. at 50hz (or 60 in my case), or any frequency for that matter, you have half the waveform being in the positive and the other half in the negative, you actually have 2 points where the voltage passes through 0v each cycle, at 0 and 180 degrees of phase. so the bulb will be at 0v 100 times a second (or 120 here in the us). its also not really turning on and off, so much as ramping up and down, ideally using the sin function. back to that shoddy inverter which probibly uses pwm to fake a sine wave by switching at a higher frequency and varying the duty cycle from 0% to 100% for the first quarter of the wave, then going back to 0% by 180, and then do the same thing with a negative voltage for the other 180 degrees of phase.

im on a roll, im gonna wait for a meteorologist troll to dissect your statements about rain.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2013, 06:17:12 am by Nuke »
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Offline Killer Whale

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I can't help but feel that you've overthought this to a ridiculous degree, jumping on linguistic nuances to disregard the intent of what was written in favour of a very literal interpretation of what was written.
And I think that's a very good thing. The fact is, semantics (and syntax) are an extremely important part of communication, especially with the modern focus on textual communication. A very large amount of disagreements and resulting discussions I see are due to a misinterpretation on the part of one or more parties (is "I see" referring to first or latter half of that sentence? (What do I mean by half? (Was that a rhetorical question? (Did I only say that so I could spam parentheses?)))). A huge amount of drama in the world could be avoided by people understanding each other. So it is important, every now and then, for you to be reminded of what the literal interpretation of your words are and how someone could easily be confused by no fault of their own. English, and I believe every language (despite only having experience in one), are limited, and you have to know that those limitations exist.

 

Offline Luis Dias

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That's amateurish at best. You have failed to incorporate all the subatomic phenomena regarding Quantum Mechanics that are at work here. Even still, we should always maintain the caveat "As far as we know", which as Socrates has taught us, is pretty much zero.

A very large amount of disagreements and resulting discussions I see are due to a misinterpretation on the part of one or more parties (is "I see" referring to first or latter half of that sentence? (What do I mean by half? (Was that a rhetorical question? (Did I only say that so I could spam parentheses?)))). A huge amount of drama in the world could be avoided by people understanding each other.

I have a sudden urge to quote Douglas Adams on his Babel Fish sketch.

 

Offline Herra Tohtori

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... this is the only reason why the bulb produces continuous light despite being driven by current that essentially turns on and off 50 times a second.

this is incorrect unless you are getting your power from a shoddy inverter, and even then its wrong. at 50hz (or 60 in my case), or any frequency for that matter, you have half the waveform being in the positive and the other half in the negative, you actually have 2 points where the voltage passes through 0v each cycle, at 0 and 180 degrees of phase. so the bulb will be at 0v 100 times a second (or 120 here in the us). its also not really turning on and off, so much as ramping up and down, ideally using the sin function. back to that shoddy inverter which probibly uses pwm to fake a sine wave by switching at a higher frequency and varying the duty cycle from 0% to 100% for the first quarter of the wave, then going back to 0% by 180, and then do the same thing with a negative voltage for the other 180 degrees of phase.

I could say I was talking about 25Hz AC...  :p

...but actually I was just being lazy about it and didn't think it through.

Quote
im on a roll, im gonna wait for a meteorologist troll to dissect your statements about rain.

Well it's definitely simplified. I dropped all the aerosol physics that are required to even start explaining cloud formation (droplet nucleation), didn't explain what causes the winds, and strictly speaking it's not necessary for Sun to shine directly on water for it to evaporate... but Sun is the source of energy in the system, and that's still causing the rain to occur. Point was that it's an inadequate explanation, and inadequate explanations are prone to people filling the gaps with their own ideas.
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Offline The E

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Problem with complete explanations being that they distract from the point you actually wanted to make though. In this particular instance, I felt that your response was too pedantic, too much focussed on what is right. Yes, giving full explanations is a good thing, but sometimes, brevity is needed. Explaining why a light bulb lights up when you hit the switch should not require excursions into quantum interactions.
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Offline Luis Dias

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pffft. Anything that doesn't refer to strings and branes is outrageously incomplete.

 

Offline Herra Tohtori

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Oi. There's a difference between inaccurate explanation and insufficient one.

An explanation to how a light bulb works can be sufficient on qualitative level without involving any talk of quantum mechanics (much less the hypothetical candidates for unified field theories).

Even on qualitative level of understanding, classical electromagnetics is actually sufficient for understanding the basic mechanism of how the hot wire produces light, although you do need some quantum mechanics (Planck's law of black-body radiation, or a special case called Wien's displacement law) to understand why the temperature affects the quality of light being produced (spectral distribution).

Moreover, even an inaccurate explanation of some natural phenomenon can be accurate enough to be useful (see Newton's laws of motion and gravity). Insufficient models on the other hand only cause confusion.
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Offline Wobble73

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pffft. Anything that doesn't refer to strings and branes is outrageously incomplete.

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